Hi Lonnie,

While I agree with you about routing being superior to bridging on a wireless
network out to the radio, I have to disagree with you on a couple other matters:

> The other issue is that bridging takes more CPU than routing.  Many people
will find this hard to believe but our routing performance exceeds the bridging
performance by at least 10%.  This is due to the requirement of the CPU to
analyze every packet in bridge mode whereas routing just passes traffic for the
MAC, which is all hardware assisted in the Ethernet controller chip.

I believe you have it backward, bridging typically only has to look at the
hardware MAC destination - 1st 6 bytes of the Ethernet frame. IP routing has to
look at the Ethernet frame's type field and if it's an IP frame the router's IP
stack looks at the destination IP address to figure out where it should be
routed. 

For us bridging does require more CPU than routing (with connection tracking
disabled) - but not for the reasons you've given.

Since we started using ebtables we perform the equivalent of connection tracking
in layer 2 for bridged frames and if the packet is an IP packet we let the
firewall inspect it as well. That does require about 10% more CPU than straight
IP routing without connection tracking.

> Subnet everything and use RIP and you will not have all IP addresses
addressable and you do not have to do anything other than enter a default route.
It is just as easy as bridging without all of the issues.

Why would you use RIP instead of OSPF?  OSPF is far superior, supported on more
platforms, and updated regularly.  RIP is a dying protocol.  We support both,
but only use RIP with legacy gear that doesn't support OSPF.


Regards,

Jeff






If you question whether there are bridge issues with wireless and bizarre
behaviour from proxy arp, mac cloning and WAN/LAN mixups then you are not paying
attention to the bulk of the posts on most of the wireless lists and support
forums.

People who tell you to bridge quite frequently do not know how to route, and for
that reason I would consider their advice as quite suspect.  Bridging requires
little or no knowledge which is why the bulk of people use it.  They take the
unit out of the box and connect a unit and all of a sudden they have a magical
LAN.  Rather than stop and design a proper subnet structure they simply start
adding other users, and wow is it ever easy.  At that point they think those
were fools telling them to route.  How can something so simple and powerful ever
give them trouble?  Unfortunately as the bridge grows they begin to have
broadcast issues and so they investigate VLAN switches.  That fixes it up and
off they tear and add more customers and every now and then another VLAN switch
and life is great.

Then you get the guy who wants to run his own VLAN between his two offices and
the Industry comes up with VLAN in VLAN.  By now it is getting a bit complicated
and they have all of these VLAN tags to deal with but at least they did not have
to learn about IP and routing.  I have noticed it is almsot like a badge of
honour to be able to say they do not route.

At the end of the day you still have a big old flat address space and any
customer can, and often does, affect your entire network.  With no knowledge of
your IP design, they can snoop and scan you and all of your customers and your
backbone infrastructure.  With nothing to segment your network you have a fairly
tough time to even find the area the trouble comes from because the nature of a
bridge makes sure that everybody on the network can hear the traffic.  The
purpose of a bridge is to connect two or more physical segments and make them
appear as one.

The other point is the Internet runs on routed machines.  Sure the Telcos have
switches in certain locations but the whole grand design is IP and subnet based.
Since you connect to that bigger network I advise that you use the same design
techniques that it uses.  To be direct, a wireless bridge is not even close to a
fibre switch with FDX, unlimited bandwidth and no latency.

Bridging causes a lot of trouble.  I know this first hand since I am the guy my
customers call to get a hand in fixing the trouble.  Sure the guys have a bit to
learn about routing and subnets, but this is their business.  Why would they not
wish to learn about networking?
How can anyone be building out networks and not have a basic knowledge of
networking?  Wireless is a combination of RF and Network Administration, and I
am sorry to say, but most people in wireless have no clue about either of those
topics, yet they are active on the lists and give out lots of "advice".

One of the largest wireless systems is run by Matt Larsen and you won't find him
telling you to bridge.  Will you Matt?

The decision is yours, but don't make the decision based on the fact you have to
learn a few things to route and can just jump in if you bridge.  If you don't
learn those few things about routing then I am quite sure you'll end up learning
a host of other things about bridging and the plethora of issues you can have.

Routing is the very simple application of a few basic rules of subnetting and
traffic direction.  Once people have learned the basics they usually tell me it
is actually easier than bridging and not a single person has ever told me that
they had better performance when they were bridged.

Sorry for the long posting, but this topic has touched some trigger points of
mine.

Lonnie


On 8/23/06, Jason Hensley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the info Mac.
>
> First, I'm not that concerned about the CPE utility working.  That's 
> one reason I like the static IP setup - I know what user has what IP 
> and how to get to their CPE.
>
> For the VLAN switch (that I'm not familiar with at all) can you tell me how
> this would work on a 2 hop setup?   Basically what I have is Tower 1 to
> Tower 2 using 5.8 backhaul, then Tower 2 to NOC using another 5.8 backhaul.
> Where would I drop the switch, or do I need one at each tower?
>
> Main thing / challenge that I'm seeing right now is that, like someone 
> else mentioned either here or on the other list, is that I cannot do 
> true routing with TR-6000's (my AP's).  So, what I've got to figure 
> out how to get past that.  I'm considering replacing the 6000's with 
> Mikrotik's, but not sure about that 100% yet.
>
> I think I've been talked out of using the public IP's on each CPE ;-)  
> and am now planning to do 1-1 NAT.  But, I'm just having trouble 
> picturing in my head how I'm going to do this - especially with the 
> TR6000 routing capabilities (or lack of).
>
> Public IP's, at least for now, are pretty easy for me to get.  I could 
> easily justify another /24 to my upstream, but beyond that, it would 
> take some pretty convincing data for me to get more.  But, once I get 
> to that size, I'll be looking at buying my own block(s).
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mac Dearman
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 9:48 AM
> Subject: RE: [WISPA] Managing CPE in routed network
>
>
>
> Jason,
>
>
>
>    I had one of the largest bridged networks ever as I cover 15-18% of 
> the State with wireless. I can tell you a few things about 
> bridging-vs-routing and I aint getting into that, but I can tell you 
> that I don't think you will want a totally static routed network 
> either. That is not necessary unless you have 50-60 clients to the AP 
> and have multiple hops with that type of traffic. You do need to be in 
> a routed environment today, but IMHO not in the way the majority would steer
you.
>
>
>
>
> Ok, this may be a simple question, but I'm trying to figure the best 
> way to do this.  My wireless network is currently all bridged with 
> three different POP's (all statically assigned private IP's).  I'm 
> getting requests for public IP addresses and as I add more clients, I 
> feel like I'm really going to need to have a routed network.
>
>
>
>
> There are many ways to accomplish what you need to have done and I 
> suggest that you look at each one of the suggestions that will have 
> been made and get a good understanding of what will be required down 
> the road to continue what you start. There are a couple very simple 
> solutions that will work, but then there are many ways to accomplish the same
task using static routing.
>
>
> Simplest and fastest (maybe best) is to use layer 2 switches utilizing 
> VLANS. You can get a switch like a ($250.00)  Linksys SRW224G4 
> (naturally there are better but that will work fine) as there are 
> whole Counties utilizing networks with the Linksys switches and 
> routing and they aren't even wireless, but fiber!  Arlington County 
> Virginia is just one example and they do the back up for the Pentagon 
> and they are a huge completely bridged network.
> Keep your bridged environment between your APs and your clients, but 
> route the backbone to all of your towers. It will break up the 
> broadcast packets...etc from tower to tower, will segment each tower 
> and will not allow a single clients virus to sweep through your entire 
> network and have rolling outages. It also keeps you from having to use 
> 10 subnets/ip ranges for 3 towers and allows for unlimited growth potential.
>
>
>
>
> My biggest question is, how do you manage your CPE remotely in a 
> routed network?  Right now I'm pretty much 90% Tranzeo gear (mixture 
> of CPE-15's and CPQ gear).  If a customer calls with performance or 
> other problems, I'm able to log into their CPE from here to see what's going
on from that end.
> I would much rather maintain that ability but not sure how to do that 
> with a routed network.
>
>
>
> I understand this question as only another etherant/Tranzeo CPE user 
> would
> :)  Once you enter a routed environment on the backhaul or otherwise - 
> your scan utility will not scan but to the first router where it will 
> loose its ability to go any farther as the scan tool uses broadcast 
> packets to seek its objects and the router kills broadcast packets. 
> You will have to log every IP on your network and access the antennas 
> via HTTP. (web interface) The scan tool will still be functional at 
> each individual tower and will capture the antennas on the wireless AP you are
attached to at the moment.
> If you maintain a bridged network w/VLANS then the scan tool and 
> everything else will work as it does now.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Also, I would ideally like to have a public IP assigned to each CPE.  
> The double NAT'ing I've got going right now has been causing a few 
> issues, plus, I'm getting more business customers that want VPN and 
> Remote Access to their network.
>
>
>
> I would NOT use public IPs for CPE, but I try to use public IPs for my 
> infrastructure. Its one of those deals where we all have our own 
> beliefs, If you use private IPs then you would need to do a VPN or RDP 
> (remote desk top) back into your network to see what's going on. The 
> biggest advantage to privates on infrastructure is NO HACKING from 
> China...etc. Give only public IPs to those who have a need and willing 
> to pay a little extra for the ability. VPNs work even though they are 
> behind NAT. I would also encourage you to keep your bandwidth shaping 
> at the head end of your network for convenience and easy back up. They 
> can only send data as fast as you allow them irregardless of where you 
> do traffic shaping. The PC will slow down the data it is sending thru 
> your network to match what you set there speed to be and it does not 
> create a traffic jam on your network - - as some would make you believe.
>
>
>
>
>
> I realize this will take subnetting to make it happen.  I've got a /24 
> right now and can easily bump to more when needed.
>
>
>
> I have a huge network right now and only have 2 /24's and 2 /27's, but 
> I don't give public IP's to anyone who don't pay for them so 90% of my 
> clients have a private IP. If more public IP's are easy to get - get 
> them! Once again the greatest advantage of private IPs is the lack of 
> the rest of the world to hack on our clients.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> How are the rest of you handling your setups like this?
>
>
>
> Half of my network is static routed and half is completely bridged. 
> Which one is faster? The bridged!  Which one is easier to maintain? The
bridged!
> Which one is easier to add clients to? The bridged! Tell me - is the 
> internet bridged or routed? It is a combination of both! Routers are 
> only used where routers are needed and if you counted the routers -vs- 
> switches on the fiber backbone of the internet which do you think have 
> the greatest population? I see it the same way on my network - - I 
> will route where I need a router and use a good switch and a VLAN everywhere
else.
>
>
>
> Let the games begin :-)
>
>
>
>
>
> Mac Dearman
>
> Maximum Access, LLC.
>
> Rayville, La.
>
> www.inetsouth.com
>
> www.mac-tel.us               (VoIP Sales)
>
> www.radioresponse.org   (Katrina Relief)
>
> 318.728.8600
>
> 318.728.9600
>
> 318.303.4181
> ________________________________
>
>
> Jason Hensley, MCP+I
> President
>
> Mozarks Technologies
> 909 Preacher Roe Blvd
> West Plains, MO  65775
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.mozarks.com
>
> 417.256.7946
> 417.257.2415 (fax)
>
>
> ________________________________
>
>
>
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--
Lonnie Nunweiler
Valemount Networks Corporation
http://www.star-os.com/
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