Tom, so what you are changing the Trangos to ?

Also, you can hack yourself a EXT Fox ...

Gino A. Villarini
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext 
in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business.  The 
reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to 
deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD 
unless ARQ is available, in these situations.  It makes it worse with all 
the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, 
until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of 
course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used 
reliably.  One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned 
that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. 
I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and 
it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks 
that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high 
volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most 
recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes 
of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and

VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation 
tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and 
complaining about.  Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU 
property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a 
trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets 
scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took

months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy

ARQ firmware.

What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side 
of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. 
Without ARQ one is toast.

Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, 
which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day 
because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. 
Last year,  I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and Link-10s 
more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not on

their priority list.  That is frustrating for my business.  Customers don't 
wait in Urban Tier1 markets.  When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or 
their were a couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already 
placed their order with someone else.

What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango APs, to 
make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that can deliver 
packetlossless links.  Even Wifi gear can offer packetlossless links.  And 
its forced me to go back and re-negotiate my contracts with property owners 
to try and not pay per antenna, so I can get more antennas of larger size 
(PtP) for less money on the roofs.  Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't

have to do, if Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext.

I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its 
product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing sales and 
getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango does not have a EXT 
antenna product line that delivers reliable ARQ.  I haven't bought a new 
Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many pulls on the shelf waiting, when I 
need one.  If Trango never released ARQ for the FOX, I would have never kown

what I was missing. But now that I have experienced it, I can't live without


The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) Waiting 
for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through.  I can't count 
how much money I burned just waiting.  I don't want to wait any more. I'm 
tired of waiting. I don't have the energy to keep waiting. I want it now.  I

need it now.  This is a time to market business, where there is a domino 
effect of disaster tied to waiting.

So when a company like Alvarion or Valemont come out with a product that 
will do the job, and I no longer have to wait, I see no reason to wait.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" <>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

> Tom,
> I hate to say this, but I think you missed the boat on your three $500/mo 
> subs. Trango still offers a 5830-EXT unit for $729 (retail) that would 
> have allowed you the external antenna that was so critical for these 
> links. Why did you not spend the $700 and have them paid for in less than 
> two months?
> Travis
> Microserv
> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>> I'm glad to hear that John found success with Alvarion.
>> However, his post does leave out technical detail on why the equipment 
>> had helped, which may be misleading to a reader.
>> I have found great success with Trango for many reasons, and will 
>> continue to in comming years, and the fact that Alvarion shines in some 
>> areas now, does not conclude that Trango is not a good platform for 
>> WISPs, as Trango products still offers one of the best value propositions

>> on the market today.  There are many factors to influence what choice is 
>> best for you and when.
>> As far as Alvarion, they are definately back in the game as a leader in 
>> reliabilty for WISPs.
>> We also have been very please with our live testing results of their 
>> product.
>> I'd like to point out that Alvarion not only provides top engineering 
>> behind their product (so you don;t have to be one your self), but also 
>> empowers the WISP to take advantage of their own engineering capabilties.

>> In other words they give the engineering control back to the WISP.  All 
>> Alvarion radio products are connectorized, allowing seperate antennas. 
>> Every radio product shows Signal-to-Nosie ratios in real time while live.

>> What this allows is for a WISP operator to accurately predict in advance 
>> of a truck roll, what a problem is, and will be required to fix it. 
>> Although it takes a truck roll, the WISP is empowered to make what ever 
>> antenna changes are necessary to fix such link, in the shortest amount of

>> time, because no Radio reconfigurations or internal documentations are 
>> needed, just the replacement of desired antenna. I'm an engineer and 
>> don;t want to be limited. And when their is engineering over my head, 
>> their is a solid engineering staff at Alvarion that is available.
>> What is a fact, is that I had three > $500 ARPU new subs, in the last two

>> weeks, that were not successfully installed, because they were teatering 
>> right on the edge of the readios capabilty to get around environmental 
>> conditions that were causing minor packet loss. $500 ARPU subs don't keep

>> service even with MINOR packet loss.  I attempted to get these with our 
>> Trango product line, because that is what is instaleld at the CellSite, 
>> taking the spectrum, with other live clients on the sectors.  As a 
>> result, I lost all three, The reason is that Wireless scares prospects, 
>> and every little bit of confidence that we could pull out of them was 
>> required to get the sale in the first place, and the first hint of 
>> difficulty, they get scared and pull the plug, before it starts.  They 
>> ask themselves, "What If?".   Had I had an external antenna option, and 
>> not been limited, I would be $1500 a month richer this week.
>> What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and 
>> move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to 
>> effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise,

>> I move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., 
>> until they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes

>> its better to claim the space and say, "I'm here first", "go find another

>> channel to play on".  And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the

>> antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point 
>> is, you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the 
>> beamwidth. The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to

>> the other player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering.  Alvarion 
>> gives that advantage.
>> The point I'm making is that Alvarion "gets it", when providing ext 
>> antenna options, and why its necessary for.
>> Until Trango puts out an external connector SU, with strong reliable ARQ 
>> feature (required for TDD in noisy environments), they are at a severe 
>> disadvantage in PtMP to competitor vendors.  Because without it, we just 
>> loose to many High ARPU prospects.   The problem that we have with Trango

>> right now, is they are making great accomplishments in their technology 
>> for low ARPU markets, but they have forgotten about taking care of the 
>> need of the High ARPU clients in PtMP in recent years.  We don't want 
>> minimum engineering for our high ARPU clients, they don't want the risk, 
>> and neither do we. I am still a big supporter of Trango's value, I just 
>> have recognized that this hole MUST be filled by them soon, for their 
>> product to stay a viable option.
>> Alvarion on the other hand has managed to solve the current day problems.

>> But this comes at a price, and the step left for the provider, is to run 
>> the numbers to see if it all works financially.  Alvarion's numbers don't

>> work everywhere, but after the fact, we are finding that they actually 
>> would have worked in more places than we originally thought.
>> Now in fairness, I have made some cross comparison between PtMP and PTP 
>> products. The Trango Atlas has an external antenna option also if doing 
>> PTP.
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mario Pommier" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" <>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:36 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
>>> John,
>>>    Good to hear you got issues fixed, independent of the 
>>> manufacturer/vendor you used.
>>>    Regarding the radios you're using now.
>>>    Some of us, like our company, started with Alvarion and never 
>>> switched out.
>>>    It's hard to try other technologies that appear less expensive, when 
>>> the one you already have proves itself year after year after year.  And 
>>> when you can talk to really good engineering support.
>>>    OK, so we haven't found a way to use Alvarion equipment on 
>>> residential markets except where we don't have to compete with $30/mo 
>>> dsl.  But I know some folks, even on this list, who somehow have done 
>>> that.
>>>    But on the business side, our transition from Alvarion BAII or 900 to

>>> VL has had the same response from our customers that you describe "wow, 
>>> that is fast".  Mind you, these customers are still limited on our 
>>> bandwidth manager to the same 1Mbps symmetrical speeds.  But the VL 
>>> network just seems to fly compared to the previous, 4 or more year old 
>>> technologies now.
>>>    It's also hard to try out other technologies when someone like you 
>>> give a report like this one: I was thinking about using Trango for a 
>>> link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today.
>>>    Thanks.
>>> Mario
>>> John Scrivner wrote:
>>>> As you guys know my company was having some serious speed and 
>>>> reliability issues with our existing Trango backhaul some time back. We

>>>> have about 25 tower locations in Southern Illinois which until recently

>>>> were all fed from these Trango radios. We had countless short outages, 
>>>> signal irregularities, bandwidth crunches, etc. The Trangos used to 
>>>> work just fine. In the last year or so the Trango links have become a 
>>>> big problem for us. We tried several things to fix these problems but 
>>>> the Trangos were simply being pushed to do more than they were designed

>>>> to do. The amount of packet counts, speed, etc. we needed to reliably 
>>>> serve the towers simply was too much for these radios and they were 
>>>> buckling under the strain.
>>>> I have always thought highly of Alvarion and knew we could probably 
>>>> find a good place for their equipment in our network someday. 
>>>> Previously the trouble with choosing Alvarion had always been that we 
>>>> either needed something they did not offer at the time needed ( as was 
>>>> the case when we selected Trango for multi-point 5 GHz backhaul back in

>>>> the day) or that they were too expensive. Alvarion finally has a place 
>>>> in our network.
>>>> In the case of our troubled backhaul links Alvarion's VL product seemed

>>>> to fit the bill to help us now. We had seen reports of 50,000 packet 
>>>> per second throughput and up to 35 megabit per second capacity with the

>>>> new Version 4 of the VL firmware. When I asked about the product I was 
>>>> directed to a guy named Mike Cowan of Wireless Connections who is a RF 
>>>> engineer and sells Alvarion VL.
>>>> Mike spent an incredible amount of time with our staff to look over the

>>>> issues we were having and help us find ways of correcting it. He never 
>>>> charged us a dime for what I consider to be thousands of dollars worth 
>>>> of support and training. Mike Cowan and Alvarion did more for us to 
>>>> help us build a better WISP network than any vendor ever has since the 
>>>> day I became a WISP.
>>>> We also had some serious peer to peer traffic issues on our network 
>>>> which were resolved with a Mikrotik box running to slow down that 
>>>> traffic. The combination of this box and the new more robust Alvarion 
>>>> VL backhaul has led customers to remark, "It's like the difference 
>>>> between night and day". We have zero downtime on our backhaul now. We 
>>>> were getting countless reports of downtime from our network monitoring 
>>>> system before. Now it just works.
>>>> I don't think I can overstate the impact Alvarion VL has had on my 
>>>> network. If you are having problems with your network then you need to 
>>>> at least call Alvarion and give them a shot. In the last three months 
>>>> or so we have migrated about 40% of our backhaul links over to Alvarion

>>>> VL. Since that time outages on those most troubled links have vanished.

>>>> Throughput has tripled. People have gone from screaming and yelling to 
>>>> sending their friends to us to hookup.
>>>> If you guys want to compare the numbers out there I am sure you will 
>>>> find a few  different systems that will give comparable umbers to what 
>>>> we are seeing with Alvarion VL. What you do not see in those numbers is

>>>> the quality and the reliability of the system. I have always been a 
>>>> tinkerer and I will continue to tinker. What I believe though is that 
>>>> there is something to be said for buying a high-quality, engineered 
>>>> system and that is what you get with Alvarion VL. If you have tower 
>>>> locations and/or enterprise customers who cannot afford to be a test 
>>>> subject for your tinkering then consider calling Alvarion for those 
>>>> links. There is no shame in admitting you cannot possibly build a 
>>>> system as reliable as a company who has spent millions of dollars and 
>>>> hired countless designers to research and build a better data radio. I 
>>>> am certainly not ashamed to admit it.
>>>> For the record, I publicly announced that I would report these findings

>>>> after I bought some Alvarion VL some time back. This was prior to 
>>>> Alvarion joining WISPA as a vendor. While my report here is almost like

>>>> reading an Alvarion advertisement I can tell you that it is not. I have

>>>> not been paid to give this shining recommendation and Alvarion has 
>>>> earned my personal support outside of my relationship with them through

>>>> WISPA. Thank you, Alvarion, for giving me a better network.
>>>> Scriv
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