I would agree. In a dense urban enviorment the usual cell size for a 3.65ghz wimax deployment is a 1km/ cell. Suburban, 2km cell, and rural, 3km cell. Obviously once you get below 3ghz the propogation gets better. It really doesnt get any better until you are talking 2ghz or lower. Of course, then once you get below 1ghz you have issues with surface refactivity and self induced interference limiting the CINR.
- Jeff On Mar 24, 2008, at 11:59 AM, Brian Webster wrote: > Jeff, > Just to clarify my point, I was not hammering on any one > manufacturer. I > was more trying to make the point that there is no magic bullet to > be able > to use an indoor CPE and have a large coverage area. This goes for > any magic > spectrum as well. Anything that will give you a large coverage will > start to > be impeded by the buildings/wavelength ratio. Indoor really only > works with > a lot of signal and many base stations.....which of course means > more money > invested in the network.....which keeps the small guy out of the game. > > > > Thank You, > Brian Webster > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Behalf Of Jeff Booher > Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 2:26 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Australian WiMAX pioneer > trashestechnologyas"miserablefailure" > > > All, > > In Airspan's defense, I am assuming the product that customer > received was the version 3.00 product that only supported 20dbm output > power. Its no surprise it didn't work and of course, the manufacturer > has retooled the product and now the product supports 27dbm > ( micromax ) at the AP and 24dbm @ the CPE. If you ran a link > calcuation using their tools for that version of hardware, its totally > not surprising the coverage was shoddy. As far as the latency is > concerned, dont know what to tell you there. What I have seen in the > field is much better performance. There is no excuse for overselling > the solution's performance however, and I dont know the customer or > what specifically caused them to get that upset. > > Honestly though using an 802.16-2004 product for indoor will not give > you the performance that you will see with 802.16-2005, as far as > latency and coverage is concerned. However, 802.16-2005 base stations > will be a LOT more expensive ( try 80-120k ) over fixed which run > around 3k-10k per sector. > > - > > Jeff > > > > On Mar 24, 2008, at 9:16 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: > >> I'd say it's probably little fault with the company and a lot of >> fault with >> people promoting or expecting more out of it than it can technically >> deliver >> (indoor install at 2 miles). >> >> >> ---------- >> Mike Hammett >> Intelligent Computing Solutions >> http://www.ics-il.com >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jenco Wireless" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 12:51 AM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Australian WiMAX pioneer trashes >> technologyas"miserablefailure" >> >> >>> I have a local competitor who uses Wi-Max equipment - maybe even >>> the brand >>> you mentioned (sorry - I don't want sued) - I have had calls from a >>> customer >>> or two of theirs who are looking for something better. I have no >>> way of >>> knowing all of the details (signal strength, etc.), but at one of >>> their >>> customers homes I did some testing and it really did look like crap >>> (500-600 >>> ms lag times). I have been saying to myself for a long time, self >>> - it's >>> all just hype until you see differently for yourself. I may have >>> been >>> right. I like it when I'm right :-) >>> >>> >>> Brad H >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 24, 2008 at 12:13 AM, Gino Villarini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Well, It still amazes me how well cell 3g is working. >>>> >>>> Currently Im on a Cruise Ship sailing out of San Juan towards >>>> Aruba, we >>>> are bordering the north coast of Puerto Rico ... about 3 miles out >>>> and I >>>> have 3 out of 5 bars in my AT&T Hsdpa Card, inside my >>>> stateroom ...not >>>> that bad, AT&T will eventually migrate to LTE which promises more >>>> speed >>>> ... >>>> >>>> Gino A. Villarini >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. >>>> tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On >>>> Behalf Of Brian Webster >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 5:58 PM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Australian WiMAX pioneer trashes technology >>>> as"miserablefailure" >>>> >>>> This does not surprise me. I have never thought that any >>>> type of >>>> indoor CPE >>>> business plan would do well for wireless internet. There are just >>>> too >>>> many >>>> unknown factors when it comes to placing a low power CPE without an >>>> external >>>> antenna in the hands of customers. They do not understand the >>>> limitations of >>>> wireless. Things like aluminum siding and stucco with wire mesh >>>> are just >>>> a >>>> couple of the big problems that you will run in to. Other items >>>> like >>>> metallic mirror film on windows and too many interior walls >>>> between the >>>> CPE >>>> and tower site are others. From an RF perspective it is always >>>> preferable to >>>> be above all of that (i.e. Rooftop) with the radio/antenna. If >>>> most of >>>> the >>>> buildings in the neighborhood are of the same height, building >>>> losses >>>> are a >>>> non-issue because you are now above them. The only thing left to >>>> worry >>>> about >>>> is the trees. Using outdoor antenna/CPE combinations should also >>>> allow >>>> you >>>> higher EIRP since the maximum permissible exposure rules would >>>> change >>>> with >>>> the unit being away from the general public. >>>> While you can make the case for customer self installs, you >>>> would need to >>>> have many more base stations so that you would have plenty of >>>> signal to >>>> overcome the building losses. This may work in a densely >>>> populated area >>>> where you can justify the numbers (but you also have more >>>> competition). >>>> In >>>> rural markets I would suggest to anyone making a business plan, >>>> figure >>>> on >>>> doing fixed outdoor CPE installations. With a properly equipped >>>> WIMAX >>>> base >>>> station costing around $40,000, a small WISP would be able to >>>> conduct >>>> many >>>> truck rolls for that price. The low housing density markets just >>>> don't >>>> justify the cost of a properly engineered indoor CPE wireless >>>> network >>>> (meaning it would take many more towers to work correctly). There >>>> would >>>> never be the return on the invested dollar. >>>> That is just my opinion, I am sure others will disagree with >>>> me. >>>> If you >>>> want a good way to think about it, how many times have you run >>>> around a >>>> building with your cell phone in a weak coverage area to keep a >>>> good >>>> call >>>> going? WIMAX indoor CPE's will be no different. The bigger problem >>>> will >>>> be >>>> that the customer will not want to move their computer in the >>>> house just >>>> to >>>> get a better broadband signal. This will easily create an unhappy >>>> consumer, >>>> and then an unhappy investor (and also clueless management). I >>>> read some >>>> commissioned market studies (can't tell you where, but they were >>>> good >>>> ones) >>>> about the average customer expectation of how and where wireless >>>> internet >>>> should work. The scary thing was that they honestly believed that >>>> they >>>> should be able to run around the house ANYWHERE with their laptop >>>> and >>>> their >>>> broadband should just work. This was how they perceived "wireless >>>> internet" >>>> working and they did not believe that they would have to install >>>> their >>>> own >>>> wireless AP in the house to achieve this. This basic perception by >>>> the >>>> consumer is far different than we all understand these networks to >>>> work. >>>> It >>>> sets a business up to get a black eye in the minds of users (which >>>> will >>>> also >>>> stress out the folks who sold the idea to investors). >>>> Bottom line to me is, you can't ignore the laws of >>>> physics.........no >>>> matter how many times the sales rep tells you it will >>>> work.......It's >>>> all in >>>> the math. >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank You, >>>> Brian Webster >>>> www.wirelessmapping.com <http://www.wirelessmapping.com> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- >>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> Behalf Of Matt Liotta >>>> Sent: Sunday, March 23, 2008 3:35 PM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: [WISPA] Australian WiMAX pioneer trashes technology as >>>> "miserablefailure" >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.commsday.com/node/228 >>>> >>>> Australian WiMAX pioneer trashes technology as "miserable failure" >>>> March 20th, 2008 >>>> Australia's first WiMAX operator, Hervey Bay's Buzz Broadband, has >>>> closed its network, with the CEO labeling the technology as a >>>> "disaster" that "failed miserably." >>>> >>>> In an astonishing tirade to an international WiMAX conference >>>> audience >>>> in Bangkok yesterday afternoon, CEO Garth Freeman slammed the >>>> technology, saying its non-line of sight performance was "non- >>>> existent" beyond just 2 kilometres from the base station, indoor >>>> performance decayed at just 400m and that latency rates reached as >>>> high as 1000 milliseconds. Poor latency and jitter made it >>>> unacceptable for many Internet applications and specifically VoIP, >>>> which Buzz has employed as the main selling point to induce people >>>> to >>>> shed their use of incumbent services. >>>> >>>> Freeman highlighted his presentation with a warning to delegates, >>>> saying "WiMAX may not work." He said that the technology was still >>>> "mired in opportunistic hype," pointing to the fact most >>>> deployments >>>> were still in trials, that it was largely used by start-up carriers >>>> and was supported by "second-tier vendors", which he contrasted >>>> with >>>> HSPA with 154 commercial networks already in operation and support >>>> from top tier vendors. >>>> >>>> What made Freeman's presentation most extraordinary was that just >>>> 12 >>>> months ago he fronted the same event with a generally positive >>>> appraisal of the platform which at that stage he had deployed >>>> just a >>>> few months before. At the time, Freeman said that his company had >>>> signed 10% of its 55,000 user target market in just two months, a >>>> market share that rose to 25%, on the back of an advertising >>>> campaign >>>> that highlighted value VoIP prices. >>>> >>>> He did acknowledge at the time that the technology had indoor >>>> coverage >>>> issues, which he yesterday said had earned him a quick and negative >>>> reaction at the time from his supplier, Airspan. Other early WiMAX >>>> adopters have also reported issues with indoor coverage: VSNL in >>>> India >>>> reported indoor loss at just 200m from the base station at an IEEE >>>> conference last year. >>>> >>>> HORSES FOR COURSES: Freeman says Buzz has now abandoned WiMAX in >>>> favour of a "horses for courses" policy. This includes use of the >>>> TD- >>>> CDMA standard at 1.9GHz-used by operators such as New Zealand's >>>> Woosh >>>> Wireless-and a platform he described as wireless DOCSIS- a >>>> relatively >>>> little known technology that takes HFC plant and extends its >>>> capabilities via wireless mesh. He said wireless DOCSIS operates >>>> at up >>>> to 38Mbps in the 3.5GHz spectrum and its customer premises >>>> equipment >>>> supported two voice ports for under $A70 while it boasted "huge >>>> cell >>>> coverage." He also was employing more conventional wireless mesh >>>> platforms at 2.4GHz that support up to 10Mbps with CPE voice ports >>>> costing less than A$80. >>>> >>>> Despite his problems with WiMAX, Freeman is a believer that >>>> competitors should operate their own infrastructure and not depend >>>> on >>>> Telstra unbundled or wholesale offerings. Prior to Buzz he was >>>> involved in the rollout of regional Victorian HFC networks as an >>>> executive with Neighborhood Cable. He says the use of wireless is >>>> essential in Hervey Bay, because ADSL is blocked to 80% of the >>>> population because of Telstra's use of pairgain and RIMs, while >>>> what >>>> ADSL ports are available are now largely exhausted. But years of >>>> successive government policies had weakened the case for standalone >>>> infrastructure, beginning with restrictive policies in the pay >>>> television market which he said undermined independent HFC >>>> deployments. >>>> >>>> "I'm against government micromanagement of the market. Government >>>> should start to provide a conducive investment environment." >>>> >>>> Not all WiMAX operators are unhappy. >>>> >>>> Internode says an Airspan-supplied network is providing consistent >>>> average speeds of 6Mbps at distances up to 30km, with CEO Simon >>>> Hackett describing the platform as "proven." >>>> >>>> Freeman's frank words left many at the WiMAX event looking >>>> uncomfortable but none more so than his co-panelist Adrian de >>>> Brenni >>>> representing Opel Networks. De Brenni, standing in for an absent >>>> Jason >>>> Horley, said little new about Opel that hasn't already been >>>> discussed, >>>> except to state that QoS would be a product feature of the future >>>> Opel >>>> wholesale offering "including voice." >>>> >>>> by Grahame Lynch >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ---- >>>> ---- >>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> ---- >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] >>>> >>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> >>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> -------- >>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> -------- >>>> >>>> WISPA Wireless List: [email protected] >>>> >>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> >>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > -------- >>>> WISPA Wants You! 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