That's an interesting point to discuss. WiMax profiles AFAIK go up to 64QAM So does WiFi 802.11a, g, n Orthogon AFAIK goes to higher order modulation, but are for P2P links where SNR is (or can be) higher - at least with high gain antennas. AFAIK No-one seems to be proposing more than 64QAM for P2MP. Fading, variable channel characteristics particularly for non-LOS and of course noise at the RX I am sure are key reasons. Other spectral efficiencies in newer systems are gained with MIMO in it's various permutations.
Comments/corrections welcome - Regards Stephen Patrick ====================================== Cablefree Solutions Ltd, www.cablefreesolutions.com -----Original Message----- From: Mike Hammett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 April 2008 20:37 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future >From a spectral efficiency standpoint, WiMax is better than anything >but Orthogon. I'm not saying to do mobile stuff, but for PtMP fixed wireless that we do now. More spectral efficiency is always better for the industry. ---------- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom DeReggi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future > Mike, > > My personal opinion is... in 5Ghz, Wimax is not the ideal solution. > In 5.3-4 G, the allowable power is not high enough. > In 5.8G, there is to much noise, from traditional legacy gear. > We proved that in our trials 4 years ago, beta testing Aperto, pre-Wimax. > It wasn't affordable to deploy a small channel and waste polarity with > diversity, based on tower colo costs. > In DC for example, we were lucky to get 1.5mbps total throughout, on a > 6Mhz > channel capable of 16-20mbps in the lab. > Diversity helps get around NLOS, but it also prevents muting out > interference on the non-needed polarity. > In DC, only Spatial diversity was viable, because Spatial diversity does > not > pickup out of polarity noise. > But we found, polarity diversity is really what best helped get around > NLOS. > Many of the WiMax vendors are working towards 5.8Ghz platforms, but > personally, I think these are really only ideal for deployments to new > underserved areas. > Its a different stroy in areas of low noise or low cost to colocate, where > mobile/NLOS is the goal and not high capacity. > Many will disagree with me, but that is my opinion. > I personally think, Alvarions existing unlicensed VL or Newer less > expensive > line products are more preferred than their Wimax in the 5.8 band. > > In 3.6, I think WiMax is needy for the advanced WiMax feature. Because it > is > virgin spectrum still. But it will be interesting to see how it all plays > out, as more providers all try and use it in one area. > > My experience is of course based on old gear. The questions that I ask is > whether the newer more advanced WiMax level gear has also added any new > noise cancellation techniques to combine with diversity, so that diversity > can be used more often, without a negative effect if noise exists on the > other pol? > The maximum benefit in gain was gained via receive diversity. A beam > turning > 90 deg out of pol could degrade over 20db, where as pol diverse signal > transmitted only adds a db or so, only because the gain is contracdicted > by > the loss associated with splitting the signal. Transmit diversity does > however, have other benefits, as we know with Mimo style designs, and beam > steering technologies. > > > > Tom DeReggi > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:14 PM > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future > > >> Who have you been getting information\pricing from on the Aperto and >> Airspan >> products? >> >> >> ---------- >> Mike Hammett >> Intelligent Computing Solutions >> http://www.ics-il.com >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jeff Booher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:16 AM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future >> >> >>> comments inline. >>> On Apr 22, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: >>> >>>> Anyone doing a 20 MHz channel? >>> >>> Not to my knowedge. >>>> >>>> >>>> Would that be enough capacity to allow for typical oversubscription >>>> on say a >>>> 10 meg client? >>> >>> Certainly. >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What does it cost to get the first AP up ($5k, $15k, $50k)? >>> >>> Between 5-10k >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> What does it cost to get additional APs up ($2k, $10k, $30k)? >>> >>> Between 5-10k >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ---------- >>>> Mike Hammett >>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions >>>> http://www.ics-il.com >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Jeff Booher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:46 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future >>>> >>>> >>>>> Chuck, >>>>> >>>>> Airspan / Aperto are both shipping 5x Ghz wimax products. >>>>> >>>>> Throughput is about 26mb peak for the Airspan product on 10mhz >>>>> channels, and 22mb on the Aperto product in 7mhz channels. Also, >>>>> there >>>>> are ways to get around the exclusion zones, if you find out who the >>>>> licenseholders are. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - >>>>> >>>>> Jeff >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 21, 2008, at 1:20 PM, CHUCK PROFITO wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Patrick, >>>>>> Excellent point on channel sizes! >>>>>> So if WiMAX is released in unlicensed frequencies of 900, 2.4? , >>>>>> 5.X, 3.6 >>>>>> (we are in a big exclusion zone.) >>>>>> I imagine if you deployed in 2.4 it would smoke the home routers. >>>>>> Would our capacity double for the same channel sizes? >>>>>> Would it use the same channel sizes? >>>>>> Would it help with range and capacity? >>>>>> Will WiMax help tree penetration? Can Physics be bent? >>>>>> In legacy deployments, would or could it improve our back hauls? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Chuck Profito >>>>>> 209-988-7388 >>>>>> CV-ACCESS, INC >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> Providing High Speed Broadband >>>>>> to Rural Central California >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:01 AM >>>>>> To: 'WISPA General List' >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future >>>>>> >>>>>> Patrick, >>>>>> If not 70 miles and 30 mbps, >>>>>> what are the real numbers on the fixed, for say: >>>>>> 2 miles los? >>>>>> 2 miles wooded? >>>>>> 5 m los? >>>>>> 5 m nlos? >>>>>> 10 m los? >>>>>> 10 m nlos >>>>>> ?? >>>>>> Is this a fair question? >>>>>> >>>>>> Chuck Profito >>>>>> 209-988-7388 >>>>>> CV-ACCESS, INC >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> Providing High Speed Broadband >>>>>> to Rural Central California >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Patrick Leary >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:14 AM >>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future >>>>>> >>>>>> The press has been wrong most of time, causing companies like ours >>>>>> great >>>>>> headaches. The stupid "70 miles 30 mbps" was the most absurd bit of >>>>>> hyperbole that the press picked up and repeated endlessly. >>>>>> Meanwhile, Mo >>>>>> Shakouri (the Marketing VP of the WiMAX Forum and an Alvarion exec) >>>>>> was >>>>>> trying to dispel that at every turn (I sat in on many of his public >>>>>> sessions). Others of us also were trying to correct the >>>>>> expectations. I >>>>>> did it in numerous analyst and press interviews. >>>>>> >>>>>> WiMAX is also doing well overseas, especially in Asia. WiMAX's >>>>>> greatest >>>>>> near term challenge in the U.S. is Sprint. >>>>>> >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Chuck McCown >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 8:57 AM >>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future >>>>>> >>>>>> WiMax as hyped by the press is dead. No? >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Patrick Leary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:52 AM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree with the vast majority of what Chuck says here and only >>>>>>> partially disagree even on the WiMAX part (though I disagree >>>>>>> strongly >>>>>> on >>>>>>> the "WiMAX is dead" part -- we have sold over $100M to date of it). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The main takeaway with Chuck's post is that WISPs will have strong >>>>>>> opportunities for a long time to come, and I agree 110%. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Patrick >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- >>>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> On >>>>>>> Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 2 >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:26 PM >>>>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future >>>>>>> >>>>>>> WiMAX was dead, is dead and will remain dead. OK, not factually >>>>>>> true >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> emotionally true. The cell companies will use WiMax frequencies >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> technologies but they will be a premium service and not well suited >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> compete with us for point to multi point fixed wireless. It will >>>>>> never >>>>>>> live >>>>>>> up to the hype. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All the cell data technologies will remain premium for folks on the >>>>>> go. >>>>>>> Cell does not want to squander the bandwidth to go after the value >>>>>>> driven >>>>>>> customer that love us so much. Cell is and will not be value >>>>>>> leader >>>>>> for >>>>>>> >>>>>>> fixed wireless. technologies. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 700 MHz is just not going to be used for anything other than more >>>>>>> cell >>>>>>> spectrum. The bands are narrow. Good for phone and limited >>>>>>> amounts >>>>>> of >>>>>>> data. Great propagation. Problem with 700 MHz is that the size of >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> antenna will be problematic for really small cell phones. Less >>>>>>> gain >>>>>>> than >>>>>>> the current 900 and 1800 antennas for the same physical sizes. >>>>>>> Also >>>>>>> there >>>>>>> will be a few years of implementation due to moving some existing >>>>>>> TV >>>>>>> stations. And some of them are not moving for some reason. I >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>> know if >>>>>>> they get a special dispensation or what. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All ILECs will continue to build out with fiber to the home. That >>>>>> will >>>>>>> erode market share for WISPs in some areas. This is a slow and >>>>>> capital >>>>>>> intensive process so no reason to get jumpy on that. Plus many >>>>>>> folks >>>>>>> prefer >>>>>>> to deal with us vs a large public traded company. Superior >>>>>>> customer >>>>>>> service >>>>>>> and support will always retain the customer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The cable companies will continue to shoot themselves in the foot >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> drop >>>>>>> the balls. They are sooo freaked out by the erosion of customer >>>>>>> base >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> DirecTV that they are not managing the IP side of the house as well >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> could. They will continue to get in a tighter and tighter cash >>>>>>> situation >>>>>>> from satellite TV pressing from one side and the ILEC FTTH (and us) >>>>>> from >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> other. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In the meantime, we add VOIP, computer repair, data backup, web >>>>>>> development, >>>>>>> OTA HDTV install and maint, etc as cross sell and up sell >>>>>> opportunities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> All of us can offer triple play if we team up with DirecTV or OTA >>>>>> HDTV. >>>>>>> OTA >>>>>>> HDTV is a wonderful opportunity for the next 18 months for the >>>>>>> value >>>>>>> conscious customer. Stock UHF TV antennas and converter boxes and >>>>>> help >>>>>>> folks get their analog TVs converted over. Less work than a WISP >>>>>>> install >>>>>>> and you will lock in the customer even more with superior customer >>>>>>> service. >>>>>>> You can rent them the gear for $5/month and make it a low cost >>>>>> package. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In 5 years hopefully your investment will be a cash cow and you >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> ride >>>>>>> this horse until it dies. Perhaps other technologies will come >>>>>>> along >>>>>>> for us >>>>>>> to deploy but I see our segment strong for the next 5 years. In 10 >>>>>>> years, >>>>>>> if we have not diversified, we will probably be hurting. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Oh, and satellite ISP will never do much. Pesky physics. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>>>> To: "WISPA List" <[email protected]> >>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 6:44 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Future >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What do you see as the future of our industry over the next 5 >>>>>>>> years? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> AT&T is expanding U-Verse (will this be available outside of >>>>>>>> town?) >>>>>>>> Verizon is expanding FiOS (will this be available outside of >>>>>>>> town?) >>>>>>>> Cable will be using DOCSIS 3 >>>>>>>> 3G will gain more steam >>>>>>>> WiMAX will have larger and larger shares of the market >>>>>>>> 700 MHz will be in use possibly for data communications by the big >>>>>>> guys >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My banker asked me, so I figured I'd see what other's opinions >>>>>>>> are. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> My thought is that the big guys mentioned above will continue to >>>>>> avoid >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> niche that we currently serve and we'll be able to provide better >>>>>>> services >>>>>>>> with more spectrum (5.4 GHz, additional 2.5 GHz, 3.6 GHz, possibly >>>>>>>> TV >>>>>>>> white spaces) and WiMAX. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ---------- >>>>>>>> Mike Hammett >>>>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions >>>>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>>>> -------- >>>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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