Thats interesting. It might be worth seeing if Montgomery County, followed suit, and did something similar?
Tom DeReggi RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Shoemaker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tower site licensing problem > Also, read the actual code/charter that regulates the activity to find > exemptions. Here in Prince George's county, MD, antennas that fall below > a certain size and power output are considered "minimal" (forget the > exact wording) and can be installed on an existing structure without > going through the permit process. > > Theoretically this would allow one to construct a tower using the > amateur radio protections, then load it up with antennas for WISP use > once the tower is constructed and signed off. > > Patrick Shoemaker > President, Vector Data Systems LLC > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > office: (301) 358-1690 x36 > http://www.vectordatasystems.com > > > Tom DeReggi wrote: >> One way to do it is... >> >> You get the tower up via HAM rules, and don't provide commercial use. >> BUilt >> it just large enoug that it would hold only your antennas. >> >> Then after the fact.... >> There are some local code issues that often incourage someone to attempt >> to >> find a pre-existing structures to colocate on, prior to being authorized >> to >> build a new tower. >> Argue, for them to expand the permit for the pre-existing HAM tower, to >> one >> allowing limited commercial use for your antennas, in trade for not >> proposing and building ANOTHER ugly larger tower right next to it. >> >> Tom DeReggi >> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc >> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Blake Bowers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:10 AM >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tower site licensing problem >> >> >>> Reasonable is more often than not going to be >>> based on what a similiar tower would lease >>> similiar space in a similiar area. >>> >>> And its always a good idea to involve an >>> attorney any more. >>> >>> >>> Don't take your organs to heaven, >>> heaven knows we need them down here! >>> Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Eric Rogers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:58 AM >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tower site licensing problem >>> >>> >>>> Who defines reasonable? I would justify that our costs in the >>>> construction of the tower, namely permitting and engineering studies >>>> required are part of the "Rent". Just like a building, I wouldn't rent >>>> it less than it costs to construct it. That doesn't make sense. At >>>> $1000/mo, it would take nearly 68 months to pay for costs. A 5-year >>>> lease is 60 months. >>>> >>>> I am not a lawyer, and I would definitely involve one if the situation >>>> arose. >>>> >>>> Eric >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >>>> Behalf Of Blake Bowers >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:41 AM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tower site licensing problem >>>> >>>> And you would be sued, and you would lose. >>>> >>>> Reasonable accommodations have to be made for >>>> collocation. If your competitor is required by the >>>> town to collocate, and you unreasonably keep him >>>> from complying with the city statutes, he has firm >>>> legal footing to pursue you. >>>> >>>> A few quotes for comparable space at other locations >>>> and he has you. >>>> >>>> Of course, this is only where you are required to provide >>>> reasonable accommodations - if you build a tower where >>>> there are no such requirements tell the guy to pound sand. >>>> >>>> Don't take your organs to heaven, >>>> heaven knows we need them down here! >>>> Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Eric Rogers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:07 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tower site licensing problem >>>> >>>> >>>>> I would personally allow co-location, but my rates would be very >>>>> inflated. If the town stated $10 was fair, I would counter >>>>> with..."Because of your requirements, you have put me at an economic >>>>> hardship. Therefore, any tenants would be required to pay the costs." >>>>> I would then set the rental rate at $1000+/mo to keep competition off. >>>>> If the town wants on there, they are the ones that put the requirement >>>>> and elevated constructions costs. At $68,000, that is a lot of >>>> monthly >>>>> rents and would be justified. >>>>> >>>>> Eric >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Joe Fiero >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 10:02 AM >>>>> To: 'WISPA General List' >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tower site licensing problem >>>>> >>>>> Clear as day in the ordinance. >>>>> >>>>> I agree, but there goes another $10 grand to challenge that provision >>>> of >>>>> the >>>>> ordinance. >>>>> >>>>> Joe >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> On >>>>> Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 9:58 AM >>>>> To: WISPA General List >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tower site licensing problem >>>>> >>>>> They cannot require colocation, that is considered a "taking". >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Joe Fiero" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>>>> To: "'WISPA General List'" <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 7:30 AM >>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tower site licensing problem >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> My first question is, where is this taking place? >>>>>> >>>>>> I ran into this in one market just recently, but it was the first >>>> time >>>>> we >>>>>> had been classified as a "telecommunications facility", and been >>>>> require >>>>>> to >>>>>> go through the extensive permitting process. >>>>>> >>>>>> The requirements we faced were above and beyond anything I had >>>>> experienced >>>>>> in 35 years in the wireless industry. There was always a distinction >>>>> made >>>>>> between a single use site and a leased telecom facility. That seems >>>>> to be >>>>>> coming to a close as the billion dollar mergers between the tower >>>>> giants >>>>>> act >>>>>> as a catalyst driving these municipalities to score what they >>>> perceive >>>>> as >>>>>> their piece of the pie. >>>>>> >>>>>> In this new world order everyone gets to "eat". And we are the ones >>>>> they >>>>>> expect to provide the meals. >>>>>> >>>>>> First off we were faced with a $8500 escrow account which the >>>>> municipality >>>>>> could use any way they deem necessary and proper to facilitate the >>>>>> permitting process. That includes paying for their engineers, >>>>> lawyers, or >>>>>> any other costs they incur for "experts" to testify at our hearings. >>>>>> >>>>>> As they depleted this fund we would be notified when the balance fell >>>>>> below >>>>>> $2500 and then required to replenish the funds within 5 business >>>> days. >>>>>> That >>>>>> was in addition to the $5000 non-refundable permit fee for a new >>>>> facility, >>>>>> or a $2500 fee for an existing facility. It also had nothing to do >>>>> with >>>>>> building or construction permits. >>>>>> >>>>>> After the permit was granted, we were still required to maintain at >>>>> least >>>>>> $2500 in this escrow account so the municipality would have available >>>>>> funds >>>>>> to, at their discretion, order future inspections and studies to >>>>> assure >>>>>> our >>>>>> continued compliance. This was arbitrary, and completely at their >>>>>> discretion. Effectively, they could spend our money any time they >>>>> wish >>>>>> and >>>>>> there was no means to appeal the action. >>>>>> >>>>>> All this hooplah over a 70 foot free standing tower that was being >>>>> placed >>>>>> on >>>>>> a hill 3/4 miles outside of town on more than an acre of property >>>> that >>>>> we >>>>>> were buying for the purpose of placing this tower on it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Additional requirements included mandatory core sampling to ascertain >>>>> the >>>>>> quality of the soil and assure it is sound enough to support a >>>>> structure, >>>>>> A >>>>>> visual impact study that includes floating a balloon and taking >>>> photos >>>>> of >>>>>> it, coordinated with a map by GPS points, that required no less than >>>>> 58 >>>>>> photos be taken. >>>>>> >>>>>> In addition to the municipal engineer, we had to provide our own >>>>>> engineering >>>>>> report. The fact that the tower was available stamped was not good >>>>>> enough. >>>>>> It had to be a local engineer who told us he would do his best to >>>> keep >>>>> his >>>>>> fees as close to $10,000 as possible. >>>>>> >>>>>> They wanted the engineering to cover the foundation, structure, each >>>>>> antenna >>>>>> both current use and planned, road design, secondary egress, RF >>>>> emissions, >>>>>> and even an environmental impact study on the area we would disturb >>>> to >>>>>> place >>>>>> the tower. This was to include a foliage replacement and erosion >>>>> control >>>>>> plan. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mostly, this tower was being sited to use unlicensed spectrum and up >>>>> until >>>>>> now I never came across a telecom ordinance that specifically >>>> included >>>>>> that >>>>>> spectrum. In most cases they specify by stating something like >>>>> "cellular, >>>>>> SMR, paging, broadcast", or some other specific descriptors. >>>>>> >>>>>> One of the most disturbing aspects of this was that we had no control >>>>> over >>>>>> who used the tower when we were done. The ordinance specifically >>>>> calls >>>>>> for >>>>>> us to build the facility for collocation and gives the municipality >>>>> the >>>>>> right to determine who collocates and what their "fair value" is for >>>>>> collocation. There was nothing preventing the mayor's son from >>>>> setting up >>>>> >>>>>> a >>>>>> LPTV station, or a competitive WISP, and requiring us to house his >>>>>> operation >>>>>> at our site for $10 per month. >>>>>> >>>>>> You are 100% correct. This new generation of ordinances for telecom >>>>>> facilities make no distinction between the mom and pop garage or feed >>>>>> store >>>>>> that wants to put up a 50 foot tower for his 2-way to his trucks, a >>>>> WISP, >>>>>> or >>>>>> a large telecom facility being sited by a nationwide service or >>>>> operator. >>>>>> In fact, this particular ordinance did not apply to just towers. It >>>>>> included any placement of any radiating device in any spectrum. That >>>>>> means >>>>>> if you deploy a mesh network in this town you are required to obtain >>>>>> permits >>>>>> for each and every node you place. >>>>>> >>>>>> With respect to OTARD, I have had quite a bit of experience with it >>>>> over >>>>>> the >>>>>> years. I have challenged CC&R's from condos and townhomes as well as >>>>>> township ordinances for anything from yagi antennas for 2-way clients >>>>> to >>>>>> reach a repeater, to 10 foot satellite dishes, to DBS and even >>>>> satellite >>>>>> Internet services. Each was successfully resolved because of the >>>>> strength >>>>>> of OTARD. >>>>>> >>>>>> However, OTARD does nothing for you and I as the operator of a >>>>> commercial >>>>>> antenna, no matter it's size or intent. OTARD applies only to the >>>> end >>>>>> user. >>>>>> >>>>>> Now that this has reared its ugly head for the second time to me I >>>> see >>>>> a >>>>>> trend. We solved the issue by not building in that location. We >>>>> moved >>>>>> outside of town and received a county level permit with no questions >>>>>> asked. >>>>>> >>>>>> For the record, this was not NY, Chicago or LA. It was a small town >>>>> of >>>>>> less >>>>>> than 4000 on the Ohio River that covers less than 1.2 square miles of >>>>>> land. >>>>>> >>>>>> I think we, as a group, need to be proactive in this area before we >>>>> are >>>>>> shut >>>>>> out of locations. Even existing sites could become untouchable with >>>>>> exorbitant fees and unduly restrictive requirements. It may be time >>>>> to >>>>>> approach the FCC, in conjunction with other industries such as 2-way >>>>> radio >>>>>> retailers, to assure that low impact telecommunications facilities >>>> are >>>>> not >>>>>> painted with the same brush as the monoliths built by the cellular >>>>>> companies. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe Fiero >>>>>> CEO >>>>>> >>>>>> NuTel Broadband Corporation >>>>>> 769 Basque Way Suite 650 >>>>>> Carson City, Nevada 89706 >>>>>> >>>>>> Direct-732-364-4161 >>>>>> >>>>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> On >>>>>> Behalf Of Isp Operator >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 6:38 AM >>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Tower site liscensing problem >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Gang, >>>>>> >>>>>> We recently received notice that one of our locations has received >>>> the >>>>>> interest of our county planning department, who has determined that >>>>> the >>>>>> location requires a 'use permit' for a major impact utility location >>>>>> (eg: Cellular telephone). Naturally, we strongly disagree with this >>>>>> determination. >>>>>> >>>>>> The site is in a remote location, on private property completely out >>>>> of >>>>>> view of anybody(*), solar powered, on a 25' mast, with only the most >>>>>> basic of equipment installed including two access points with an omni >>>>>> and a sector. Aside from being 'outdoors', really, there's no >>>>>> resemblance to a 'cellphone tower' as the gear is equivalent to what >>>>>> most people use for their home wireless networks, albeit with >>>> slightly >>>>>> larger externally mounted antennas. The planning department DID NOT >>>>> cite >>>>>> any building codes or height restrictions, just that we seem to be >>>>>> 'transmitting' as well as 'receiving', and we're certain that the >>>>>> determination has to do ONLY with the fact that it's a wireless >>>>> repeater >>>>>> and otherwise wouldn't receive any attention at all if it was a wind >>>>>> generator, weather station or other application. >>>>>> >>>>>> The substantial weight of the use permit process they wish us to go >>>>> thru >>>>>> is exactly that for a major cellphone site, complete with hefty >>>>>> application fees, public hearings, zoning approvals, and the whole >>>>> nine >>>>>> yards. Assuming we made it all the way thru the process, we would >>>> then >>>>>> also be required to build it up with severe site upgrades including >>>>> fire >>>>>> access and other features, which is simply too much overkill and we >>>>>> would not be able to comply. >>>>>> >>>>>> Isn't there some kind of exemption or otard-similar ruling or legal >>>>>> guidelines from the fcc regarding this type of situation? I can only >>>>>> imagine that the criteria cited would also apply to many, many other >>>>>> uses of part-15 devices and that the regulations just predate (2001 >>>> in >>>>>> our case) the real onslaught of linksys in every home. I also imagine >>>>>> that there would be substantial damage if every wisp was required to >>>>> get >>>>>> cellphone tower permits for every single repeater in use according to >>>>>> these strict interpretations. We're going to need more than common >>>>> sense >>>>>> here, we're going to need legal precedence or references to directly >>>>>> refute this determination, and we would appreciate your help. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks all. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> (* We were turned in by a certain tin hat, who has been dogging us >>>> for >>>>>> some time now and attempting to create sympathy for their extreme >>>>> views >>>>>> which we are sure you all are aware of. Just one more reason to not >>>>>> share detailed system information with anybody....) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ---- >>>>>> ---- >>>>>> WISPA Wants You! 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