I agree but you cant fix a large network overnight. Especially in this weather!
Thanks for your input! On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> wrote: > Appropriate bandwidth bandwidth shaping with QoS and prioritization and more > than likely you don't to tell anyone (well still very possible) but at least > you will not get complains from other users on the network that it's slow. > The good thing with fileshare it's not a "interactive" system that require a > certain minimum bandwidth such as streaming audio or video. File share > bandwidth usage is easy to handle. > Streaming audio/video can only be "fixed" by providing the user with more > "dedicated" bandwidth so less overselling. > > / Eje > > -----Original Message----- > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On > Behalf Of RickG > Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:44 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents > > Fortunately, its not common on my network ether. Just one or two a > month have to be told. > > On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Josh Luthman > <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: >> I didn't say it wasn't an issue. I said there are solutions to the > problem. >> >> I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many >> of them do not offer regular downloads? If you were to be one of >> these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why? >> >> I am stating torrent isn't mainstream. I am stating you can't treat >> torrents like HTTP. You are trying to make it sound as if the >> majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web >> which, arguably so, is simply not the case. Not in the world I live >> in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this >> list. >> >> On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> wrote: >>> So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So > no >>> need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are >>> insignificant because nobody uses Torrents. >>> It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you >>> name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the > link >>> torrent file download and download client is launched. >>> >>> You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it > the >>> hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I > downloaded >>> been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast >>> mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter > how >>> new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source >>> community by seeding the distro. >>> I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and > well >>> honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a "useful" mirror. >>> >>> And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents >>> providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves. >>> You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I > gave >>> it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you >>> prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then > are >>> we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or > connection >>> limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use. >>> Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and > with >>> every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will > continue >>> to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO. >>> Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If >>> someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then > downloaded >>> the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't > going >>> to be happy. >>> >>> Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data > storage >>> service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to >>> figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to > be >>> happy. >>> >>> Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate > Bay. >>> So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of >>> downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album). >>> >>> And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is > ready >>> to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as you >>> download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of the >>> times faster downloads..... >>> >>> / Eje >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman >>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents >>> >>> I never said it was good to block it. I think blocking it is bad. Not > sure >>> where you got that impression. My stance is if you can support it, > charge >>> them for it. If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop it >>> with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely. >>> >>> Once again... >>> >>> I have played Wow. I played it last week for the free trial. Instead of >>> waiting all night for the torrent I went to one of the mirrors I posted > and >>> got the patch in minutes instead of hours. Blizzard's other games - >>> Starcraft, Warcraft 2 and 3, Diablo 1 and 2 - are all HTTP only. The > only >>> Blizzard files obtained via torrent are the Wow patches and hi def >>> trailers/movies - < >>> http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&tag=patches> >>> >>> Every *nix distro I've obtained (Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos, DSL, Knoppix, >>> Gentoo, maybe more) I've done HTTP. >>> >>> Who cares if Nine Inch Nails distributes their music via torrent? No one >>> uses it anyways - they all use Napster/Kazaa/Limewire. >>> >>> So why choose torrent over HTTP? I just don't see Grandma Bonnie Emailer > or >>> Little Timmy MP3er or Greasy Gary Gamer (except that one half Wow > example) >>> using torrents. I just don't see the average user installing utorrent to >>> get their blog videos, mp3s or latest content, it's easier to click one > link >>> in the browser, save it and use it. >>> >>> I also want to mention that 300GB/mo transfer at home is not high at all. >>> >>> Josh Luthman >>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>> 1100 Wayne St >>> Suite 1337 >>> Troy, OH 45373 >>> >>> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to > continue >>> that counts." >>> --- Winston Churchill >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> > wrote: >>> >>>> Have you ever played wow and see how their updates are released and >>>> distributed? (I'm not a wow player but I had to deal with it). Basically >>>> you >>>> start the game, login to your character and you get a notice update is >>>> available and you say ok and it starts downloading and update starts > once >>>> it >>>> is done. >>>> >>>> ISO distro downloads. Instead of hunting for a mirror site that have > fast >>>> speeds and testing out multiple of them before finding on that give you >>>> good >>>> speed. All I do is select one torrent file and start a torrent download. >>>> ISO >>>> downloaded in no time. Faster easier and less issues. Especially when > you >>>> deal with a big distro version that is DVD format and newly released. >>>> >>>> Other adoptions.... >>>> BitTorrent Inc has a number of licenses from Hollywood for distributing >>>> popular content with their torrent system >>>> Sub Pop Records reelases tracks and videos to distribute its 1000+ > albums. >>>> The band Ween as an example uses the website Browntracker.net to >>> distribute >>>> hundreds of video recordings of live shows. >>>> Babyshambles, The Libertines has extensively used torrents to distribute >>>> hundreds of demos and live videos. >>>> Nine Inch Nails frequently distribute albums via BitTorrent >>>> Many new PodCasting software start to integrate BitTorrent to help >>>> broadcasters deal with download demands of their MP3 "radio" programs. > For >>>> example Juice and Miro support automatic processing of .torrent files > from >>>> RSS feeds. The same thing with uTurrent. >>>> Then you have Mininova tracker which is a Content Distributor only >>> platform >>>> to allow copyright holders especially smaller groups to distribute their >>>> music, videos etc. >>>> In addition DGM Live! Purchass are provided via BitTorrent >>>> >>>> CBC was the first public broadcaster in NA to make a full show available >>>> for >>>> download using BitTorrent >>>> NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) has since March 08 experimented >>>> with bittorrent distribution for selected material which NRK owns all >>>> royalties (they use Miro) (http://nrkbeta.no/bittorrent/) >>>> VPRO (Dutch broadcaster) released some documentaries under the Creative >>>> Commons license using Mininova. >>>> >>>> Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is equipped with a built-in > BitTorrent >>>> support >>>> Bog Torrent has a bittorent track to enable bloggers to host a tracker > on >>>> their site to allow visitors to download a stub loader so they can > access >>>> picture, blog, music, videos posted by the blogger. >>>> >>>> As mentioned Blizzard Entertainment (especially Wow) uses built in >>>> BitTorrent in their software for updates, patches, maps etc downloads. >>> Some >>>> of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and >>> distribute >>>> of a traditional server because once a large update is released you will >>>> have tens of thousands people that will download said update within > hours. >>>> Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and >>>> download >>>> a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds. >>>> >>>> Many open source and free software projects encourage BitTorrent > basically >>>> to increase availability and to reduce load on their own servers mostly >>>> when >>>> a new software release just been released. When you have hundreds or >>>> thousands people that want to download latest dist. Personally I don't >>> mind >>>> to help seed a Fedora torrent because it helps me out when a new version >>> is >>>> available as well. >>>> >>>> So enough legal usages and samples for you now to still think it's ok to >>>> totally block or throttle BitTorrent to nothingness? Your customers pay >>> you >>>> to get access to data what they access is after all really not your >>>> responsibility. Yours is to provide them with access and ensure that > they >>>> have good access and get what they pay for which means control and >>> maintain >>>> network stability and speed by managing your traffic to a level that is >>>> good >>>> for everyone. The more people that blatantly block things and especially >>>> when there is no other highspeed options will cause the FCC/government > to >>>> step in and enforce how things need to be ran and what you are allowed > or >>>> especially not allowed to do. But of course if your clean about it and >>> very >>>> upfront about it then it might be a different matter. But if your hide > it >>>> in >>>> a AUP or TOS in the fine print especially if you don't make the user > sign >>>> it >>>> but states usage of internet means acceptance of the terms you are in > deep >>>> waters. >>>> I personally allow any fileshare application on my network. I do > throttle >>>> it >>>> and only allow a max of 60% of my available bandwidth for fileshare apps >>>> shared over all my customers and on top of it any interactive data >>>> transfers >>>> is prioritized (dns, mail, http, messengers to mention a few) above >>>> fileshare. The advantage to this is that my customer can still download >>>> things over fileshare and it will not kill their other usage nor my >>>> available bandwidth either. Works nice for them and for me and everyone > is >>>> happy. >>>> >>>> / Eje >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >>>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman >>>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:44 AM >>>> To: WISPA General List >>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents >>>> >>>> I'm not saying there aren't a lot of legal torrents but I'm saying the >>>> majority are illegal and that torrent is by no means a mainstream > protocol >>>> that needs to be supported. >>>> >>>> Wow patches? Here's some HTTP mirrors... >>>> http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_mirrors >>>> >>>> MT updates? Click the link above it that is HTTP for the file you need. >>>> >>>> *nix distros? Click the HTTP links above or below it. >>>> >>>> These are the 3 examples I see time and time again and I always ask, >>>> without >>>> answer, for other examples. >>>> >>>> Josh Luthman >>>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>>> 1100 Wayne St >>>> Suite 1337 >>>> Troy, OH 45373 >>>> >>>> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to > continue >>>> that counts." >>>> --- Winston Churchill >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:41 AM, Philip Dorr >>>> <wirel...@judgementgaming.com>wrote: >>>> >>>> > I get my Ubuntu ISOs via Bittorrent. >>>> > >>>> > We block the customer, until they stop, if it is causing problems with >>>> > the AP they are on. We have only had problems on our 2.4Ghz and >>>> > sometimes 900Mhz APs. We have not yet had any problems on our 5.8Ghz >>>> > APs. >>>> > >>>> > On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Josh Luthman >>>> > <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: >>>> > > Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik. What else that you would go >>>> > > under oath saying you torrented? >>>> > > >>>> > > On 2/14/10, Robert West <robert.w...@just-micro.com> wrote: >>>> > >> We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing. But >>>> "allowing" >>>> > >> means no 24 hour downloading. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via >>>> torrent. >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Bob- >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> -----Original Message----- >>>> > >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org > [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] >>>> On >>>> > >> Behalf Of RickG >>>> > >> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM >>>> > >> To: WISPA General List >>>> > >> Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Even though our AUP & TOS does not allow it, I have a customer >>>> > >> demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am > I >>>> > >> being over >>>> > >> zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows > them? >>>> > >> -RickG >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > >> ---- >>>> > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>> > >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>> > >> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> > >> ---- >>>> > >> >>>> > >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>> > >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>> > >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>> > >> >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> > >> >>>> > >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>> > >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> > >> >>>> > >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>> > >> >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > -- >>>> > > Josh Luthman >>>> > > Office: 937-552-2340 >>>> > > Direct: 937-552-2343 >>>> > > 1100 Wayne St >>>> > > Suite 1337 >>>> > > Troy, OH 45373 >>>> > > >>>> > > "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to >>>> > > continue that counts." >>>> > > --- Winston Churchill >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>> > > http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> > > >>>> > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>> > > >>>> > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>> > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> > > >>>> > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>> > > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> > WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>> > http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>> > >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> > >>>> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>> > >>>> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> > >>>> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>> > >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>> >>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> >>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>>> >>>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>>> >>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>>> >>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>>> >>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>>> >>> >>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>> >>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >>> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >>> http://signup.wispa.org/ >>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >>> >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >>> >>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >>> >>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >>> >> >> >> -- >> Josh Luthman >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> 1100 Wayne St >> Suite 1337 >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to >> continue that counts.” >> --- Winston Churchill >> >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > WISPA Wants You! 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