I agree but you cant fix a large network overnight. Especially in this weather!

Thanks for your input!

On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 9:52 PM, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> wrote:
> Appropriate bandwidth bandwidth shaping with QoS and prioritization and more
> than likely you don't to tell anyone (well still very possible) but at least
> you will not get complains from other users on the network that it's slow.
> The good thing with fileshare it's not a "interactive" system that require a
> certain minimum bandwidth such as streaming audio or video. File share
> bandwidth usage is easy to handle.
> Streaming audio/video can only be "fixed" by providing the user with more
> "dedicated" bandwidth so less overselling.
>
> / Eje
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of RickG
> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:44 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
>
> Fortunately, its not common on my network ether. Just one or two a
> month have to be told.
>
> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 6:34 PM, Josh Luthman
> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>> I didn't say it wasn't an issue.  I said there are solutions to the
> problem.
>>
>> I am stating that while broadcasters and such use torrents, how many
>> of them do not offer regular downloads?  If you were to be one of
>> these broadcasters and had to choose one medium, which one and why?
>>
>> I am stating torrent isn't mainstream.  I am stating you can't treat
>> torrents like HTTP.  You are trying to make it sound as if the
>> majority of users use torrents to the same extent someone uses the web
>> which, arguably so, is simply not the case.  Not in the world I live
>> in, not my customers and probably not even the subscribers on this
>> list.
>>
>> On 2/14/10, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com> wrote:
>>> So in otherwords Torrent shouldn't be an issue then from what you say. So
> no
>>> need to block or throttle it. Also sites like The Pirate Bay are
>>> insignificant because nobody uses Torrents.
>>> It's easy. Installed a Torrent client (utorrent, bittorent, limewire you
>>> name it) and when you run across a torrent offered download click the
> link
>>> torrent file download and download client is launched.
>>>
>>> You might not see the use of it or like Nine Inch Nails, prefer to do it
> the
>>> hard way with WoW and prefer http downloads. All ISO *nix dists I
> downloaded
>>> been over torrent because I grew frustrated trying to find the one fast
>>> mirror with Torrent I frequently hit 800KBps downloads speeds no matter
> how
>>> new the release is. Plus on top of it I can help out the open source
>>> community by seeding the distro.
>>> I do NOT want to be a mirror because of the bandwidth utilizations and
> well
>>> honestly I do not have decent enough speed to be a "useful" mirror.
>>>
>>> And you forgot all other examples I provided that are legal Torrents
>>> providing broadcaster shows and podcasts some by broadcasters themselves.
>>> You wanted more examples besides wow, *nix distros and MikroTik and I
> gave
>>> it to you. You just said to you torrent was useless and to hard and you
>>> prefer web downloads and say that nobody else would use it so why then
> are
>>> we having the discussion about bittorrents and block, throttle or
> connection
>>> limit obviously it's not a uncommon occurrence/use.
>>> Legal or not downloads. Like it or not BitTorrent is here to stay and
> with
>>> every day there will be more legal use for it and illegal use will
> continue
>>> to be used. Blocking it or throttle it to unusable is not an option IMHO.
>>> Just like Napster it used to be for illegal downloads now it's not. If
>>> someone paid for a subscription on the Napster website and then
> downloaded
>>> the software client and find out his ISP is blocking it this guy ain't
> going
>>> to be happy.
>>>
>>> Say someone buys the Amazon S3 service to have a offsite synced data
> storage
>>> service and your blocking it and it takes this person/company hours to
>>> figure out that you're the blame I'm sure this business is not going to
> be
>>> happy.
>>>
>>> Nine Inch Nails have their official torrent provided through The Pirate
> Bay.
>>> So anyone using LimeWire as you say will access the official way of
>>> downloading the 2 last NIN albums (first one was a 4 cd album).
>>>
>>> And if you have installed Limewire/Kazza or whatever the gamer/mp3r is
> ready
>>> to download torrents with a single click of a webpage just as easy as you
>>> download a normal file through a http page but the advantage most of the
>>> times faster downloads.....
>>>
>>> / Eje
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman
>>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 3:09 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
>>>
>>> I never said it was good to block it.  I think blocking it is bad.  Not
> sure
>>> where you got that impression.  My stance is if you can support it,
> charge
>>> them for it.  If it costs you too much and you lose money on it, drop it
>>> with speed limiting, blocking or the customer entirely.
>>>
>>> Once again...
>>>
>>> I have played Wow.  I played it last week for the free trial.  Instead of
>>> waiting all night for the torrent I went to one of the mirrors I posted
> and
>>> got the patch in minutes instead of hours.  Blizzard's other games -
>>> Starcraft, Warcraft 2 and 3, Diablo 1 and 2 - are all HTTP only.  The
> only
>>> Blizzard files obtained via torrent are the Wow patches and hi def
>>> trailers/movies - <
>>> http://us.blizzard.com/support/article.xml?locale=en_US&tag=patches>
>>>
>>> Every *nix distro I've obtained (Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos, DSL, Knoppix,
>>> Gentoo, maybe more) I've done HTTP.
>>>
>>> Who cares if Nine Inch Nails distributes their music via torrent?  No one
>>> uses it anyways - they all use Napster/Kazaa/Limewire.
>>>
>>> So why choose torrent over HTTP?  I just don't see Grandma Bonnie Emailer
> or
>>> Little Timmy MP3er or Greasy Gary Gamer (except that one half Wow
> example)
>>> using torrents.  I just don't see the average user installing utorrent to
>>> get their blog videos, mp3s or latest content, it's easier to click one
> link
>>> in the browser, save it and use it.
>>>
>>> I also want to mention that 300GB/mo transfer at home is not high at all.
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
> continue
>>> that counts."
>>> --- Winston Churchill
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Eje Gustafsson <e...@wisp-router.com>
> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Have you ever played wow and see how their updates are released and
>>>> distributed? (I'm not a wow player but I had to deal with it). Basically
>>>> you
>>>> start the game, login to your character and you get a notice update is
>>>> available and you say ok and it starts downloading and update starts
> once
>>>> it
>>>> is done.
>>>>
>>>> ISO distro downloads. Instead of hunting for a mirror site that have
> fast
>>>> speeds and testing out multiple of them before finding on that give you
>>>> good
>>>> speed. All I do is select one torrent file and start a torrent download.
>>>> ISO
>>>> downloaded in no time. Faster easier and less issues. Especially when
> you
>>>> deal with a big distro version that is DVD format and newly released.
>>>>
>>>> Other adoptions....
>>>> BitTorrent Inc has a number of licenses from Hollywood for distributing
>>>> popular content with their torrent system
>>>> Sub Pop Records reelases tracks and videos to distribute its 1000+
> albums.
>>>> The band Ween as an example uses the website Browntracker.net to
>>> distribute
>>>> hundreds of video recordings of live shows.
>>>> Babyshambles, The Libertines has extensively used torrents to distribute
>>>> hundreds of demos and live videos.
>>>> Nine Inch Nails frequently distribute albums via BitTorrent
>>>> Many new PodCasting software start to integrate BitTorrent to help
>>>> broadcasters deal with download demands of their MP3 "radio" programs.
> For
>>>> example Juice and Miro support automatic processing of .torrent files
> from
>>>> RSS feeds. The same thing with uTurrent.
>>>> Then you have Mininova tracker which is a Content Distributor only
>>> platform
>>>> to allow copyright holders especially smaller groups to distribute their
>>>> music, videos etc.
>>>> In addition DGM Live! Purchass are provided via BitTorrent
>>>>
>>>> CBC was the first public broadcaster in NA to make a full show available
>>>> for
>>>> download using BitTorrent
>>>> NRK (Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation) has since March 08 experimented
>>>> with bittorrent distribution for selected material which NRK owns all
>>>> royalties (they use Miro) (http://nrkbeta.no/bittorrent/)
>>>> VPRO (Dutch broadcaster) released some documentaries under the Creative
>>>> Commons license using Mininova.
>>>>
>>>> Amazon S3 (Simple Storage Service) is equipped with a built-in
> BitTorrent
>>>> support
>>>> Bog Torrent has a bittorent track to enable bloggers to host a tracker
> on
>>>> their site to allow visitors to download a stub loader so they can
> access
>>>> picture, blog, music, videos posted by the blogger.
>>>>
>>>> As mentioned Blizzard Entertainment (especially Wow) uses built in
>>>> BitTorrent in their software for updates, patches, maps etc downloads.
>>> Some
>>>> of these downloads are extremely large and difficult to host and
>>> distribute
>>>> of a traditional server because once a large update is released you will
>>>> have tens of thousands people that will download said update within
> hours.
>>>> Support nightmare to try to get everyone go to a mirror webpage and
>>>> download
>>>> a separate installer with no automatic and slow download speeds.
>>>>
>>>> Many open source and free software projects encourage BitTorrent
> basically
>>>> to increase availability and to reduce load on their own servers mostly
>>>> when
>>>> a new software release just been released. When you have hundreds or
>>>> thousands people that want to download latest dist. Personally I don't
>>> mind
>>>> to help seed a Fedora torrent because it helps me out when a new version
>>> is
>>>> available as well.
>>>>
>>>> So enough legal usages and samples for you now to still think it's ok to
>>>> totally block or throttle BitTorrent to nothingness? Your customers pay
>>> you
>>>> to get access to data what they access is after all really not your
>>>> responsibility. Yours is to provide them with access and ensure that
> they
>>>> have good access and get what they pay for which means control and
>>> maintain
>>>> network stability and speed by managing your traffic to a level that is
>>>> good
>>>> for everyone. The more people that blatantly block things and especially
>>>> when there is no other highspeed options will cause the FCC/government
> to
>>>> step in and enforce how things need to be ran and what you are allowed
> or
>>>> especially not allowed to do. But of course if your clean about it and
>>> very
>>>> upfront about it then it might be a different matter. But if your hide
> it
>>>> in
>>>> a AUP or TOS in the fine print especially if you don't make the user
> sign
>>>> it
>>>> but states usage of internet means acceptance of the terms you are in
> deep
>>>> waters.
>>>> I personally allow any fileshare application on my network. I do
> throttle
>>>> it
>>>> and only allow a max of 60% of my available bandwidth for fileshare apps
>>>> shared over all my customers and on top of it any interactive data
>>>> transfers
>>>> is prioritized (dns, mail, http, messengers to mention a few) above
>>>> fileshare. The advantage to this is that my customer can still download
>>>> things over fileshare and it will not kill their other usage nor my
>>>> available bandwidth either. Works nice for them and for me and everyone
> is
>>>> happy.
>>>>
>>>> / Eje
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Josh Luthman
>>>> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:44 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] [Mikrotik] bittorrents
>>>>
>>>> I'm not saying there aren't a lot of legal torrents but I'm saying the
>>>> majority are illegal and that torrent is by no means a mainstream
> protocol
>>>> that needs to be supported.
>>>>
>>>> Wow patches?  Here's some HTTP mirrors...
>>>> http://www.wowwiki.com/Patch_mirrors
>>>>
>>>> MT updates?  Click the link above it that is HTTP for the file you need.
>>>>
>>>> *nix distros?  Click the HTTP links above or below it.
>>>>
>>>> These are the 3 examples I see time and time again and I always ask,
>>>> without
>>>> answer, for other examples.
>>>>
>>>> Josh Luthman
>>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>>> Suite 1337
>>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>>
>>>> "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
> continue
>>>> that counts."
>>>> --- Winston Churchill
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 1:41 AM, Philip Dorr
>>>> <wirel...@judgementgaming.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > I get my Ubuntu ISOs via Bittorrent.
>>>> >
>>>> > We block the customer, until they stop, if it is causing problems with
>>>> > the AP they are on.  We have only had problems on our 2.4Ghz and
>>>> > sometimes 900Mhz APs. We have not yet had any problems on our 5.8Ghz
>>>> > APs.
>>>> >
>>>> > On Sun, Feb 14, 2010 at 12:09 AM, Josh Luthman
>>>> > <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>>> > > Torrents are used by WoW and Mikrotik.  What else that you would go
>>>> > > under oath saying you torrented?
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On 2/14/10, Robert West <robert.w...@just-micro.com> wrote:
>>>> > >> We allow but they can't run a server, as in NO sharing.  But
>>>> "allowing"
>>>> > >> means no 24 hour downloading.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Can't get around torrents, even Mikrotik has their updates via
>>>> torrent.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Bob-
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> -----Original Message-----
>>>> > >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org
> [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>>> On
>>>> > >> Behalf Of RickG
>>>> > >> Sent: Sunday, February 14, 2010 12:55 AM
>>>> > >> To: WISPA General List
>>>> > >> Subject: [WISPA] bit torrents
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Even though our AUP & TOS does not allow it, I have a customer
>>>> > >> demanding to run bit torrents. I want to be fair in all matters. Am
> I
>>>> > >> being over
>>>> > >>  zealous on not allowing torrents? Who here allows or disallows
> them?
>>>> > >> -RickG
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > --
>>>> > > Josh Luthman
>>>> > > Office: 937-552-2340
>>>> > > Direct: 937-552-2343
>>>> > > 1100 Wayne St
>>>> > > Suite 1337
>>>> > > Troy, OH 45373
>>>> > >
>>>> > > "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
>>>> > > continue that counts."
>>>> > > --- Winston Churchill
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
>> continue that counts.”
>> --- Winston Churchill
>>
>>
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