You're such an understanding guy Steve :-) Of course now you've tempted me, so I have some "breif" comments to your questions below.....
----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: SOAP > See > > I told you Scott would reply. (this only means that he has been with SOAP > since the beginning). > > Scott, I apologize for trying to put you in a position where your expertise > has already been reimbursed for monetarily. I appreciate your prespective. Although, let it be said; that I do believe that in order to support Witango (and ultimately ourselves)... us developers should make an effort to more freely distribute what code we can, to help others (newbies and veterans). Please see my site http://xml-extra.net But that we still need to make a living, so understandly there are limits to what we can give away. Thank you. This is what is so great about this List, because "knowledge" has always been freely given and available here. And I'll always make an effort to contribute, where I can. Thank you again :-). > Secondly, I will look at the examples, although some think as I do, when > Steve Jobs was at the last Mac World, and he said, "Does anyone really know > what "DOT NET" is?" > This is just Mac propoganda, because .NET is not running on Mac "yet". Check out the Mono Project for all platforms: http://www.go-mono.com/ I bet you dollars to donuts that Steve Jobs knows full well exactly what .NET is. If he didn't, he is not qualified to run his company. Here is a cut-and-paste from my site, of my own "breif" description of what .NET is. Of course, it doesn't do justice to all the amazing power that .NET gives you as a developer: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ What is the .NET Framework? Briefly, the .NET Framework is the new development environment for the Windows platform. But it's not just a new way to write "Win32" applications for a standalone Desktop and/or client-server applications - it's about writing new applications that pull together Desktop, Server and Network Resources (internally and externally) into comprehensive, "connected" objects that can be seemlessly bound to eachother. The underlying glue of the .NET Framework is XML Web Services (SOAP and UDDI), which can also integrate without prejudice with Web Services on other platforms, such as Linux and Mac that might be running Java. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Before .NET, most Win32 programming, i.e., VB, VC++ was the result of an evolution in Windows programming, which of course contains a lot of mistakes and hack workarounds. .NET is the product of all that experience and a complete rebuild of these older languages. C# is of course a brand new and cohesive starting point for a language that could be described as a combination of the good bits from all the other languages (including Java). The .NET Framework is simply the environment (API) these new languages operate in. The Framework is Similar to the Java Virtual Machine - but more. > I am not for sure about DOT NET, but I do think that getting on the SOAP > band wagon, will in turn, allow one to get on the DOT NET wagon as well. I > am not that concerned as missing the DOT NET train here at the beginning on > the Beta 2 caboose, but, I do want to make sure that I dont' miss out on the > SOAP wagon. SOAP is a large part of .NET. Are you referring to Windows .NET Server 2003 Beta 2? Because the final is already at the PC Manufactures and will be released in a few weeks. The .NET Runtime "Redistributable" and SDK (both free) has been out of Beta for over a year now. Lots of people are using, including me. ++++++++++++++ Now, lets be clear here - I'm not using .NET because I think it's better than Witango, but because I think the two can have a integral relationship. Just like Java and Witango can have a integral relationship. Checkout the Java Compiler from Witango when it is released. These days more than ever, we need to be competative. .NET is cool and Java is cool - but Witango is still at least 4 times faster at building code, and I can tell you that from experience. Now that I'm branching out on my own to become an independant developer, I've developed a "two-pronged" approach to my business. -------Pronge One--------- If a customer wants an extensiable web-application solution that requires interoperability ranging from Network Sockets to web enabled Desktop Windows applications, and they might need the source code be compatiable with other desparate developers - then .NET is the answer. BUT, they need to be prepared for a lengthy development cycle. (Subsitute Java above for some of you) -------Pronge Two--------- But, if the customer needs it now, and their requirements are not quite so heavy - then Witango IS the solution. The speed that you can build Witango applications verses a .NET or Java application has enormous value to each different kind of customer (small business to corporations). This is the part we need to be mindful of. (Some might argue that is what the ASP.NET Server Controls are for - but I've used them and find them to be crap, so I build all my ASP.NET pages as pure XML / XSLT output). ....................... This is what I mean by relationship. In fact I've even built a Session Transfer method that allows me logon to a Witango web-page and segue seamlessly to a ASP.NET page, and vise versa, without an extra logon - but more on that some other time :-) Anyway, I'll close with saying: Don't be afraid to try a new web language because this is where you'll see the true strength that Witango has - especially if you can partner the pros and cons of both languages. Now if we could just get the rest of the world to see this, then we'd be set, huh? -- If you've read this far - thank you for your patience. Cheers......... > Thanks again Scott, your detailed explainations are very appreciated by me > if not by many more on this list. > > Thanks > > Steeve > > > > > On 4/4/03 10:54 AM, "Scott Cadillac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hi Steve, and Christian. > > > > To be honest, I was curious to see who else might respond to this first :-) > > > > I can well imagine that SOAP is on a "to-do" list for Phil, which would one > > of many items I'm sure. Witango is not 100% SOAP ready - but you can get > > pretty darn close. > > > > Yes, I've implemented SOAP in a number of "custom" applications now, and > > learned a lot in the process. > > > > .................... > > ~ There are two kinds of SOAP you can code for: Dynamic SOAP calls (true > > SOAP) or SOAP where the "definitions" don't change. Witango can do the > > later. > > > > .................... > > ~ The standards for SOAP are still evolving and it's pretty hard to code a > > moving target - a challenge for even the biggest software companies. i.e., > > IBM, MS, Sun, etc... > > > > .................... > > ~ True SOAP allows for automated interaction (calls) between two Services, > > where the properties and arguments of those Services can change > > dynamically - this is what WSDL is for. WSDL "describes" conditions and > > argument requirements for a Service you are calling. The WSDL has to be > > retrieved and processed before you can make the actual Service "call" so > > that the calling Service knows how to call the Service - follow me? > > > > Here is a very, very simple example of WSDL: > > > > http://xml-extra.net/system-services.asmx?wsdl > > > > This is where most of the Standards changes are happening, at this dynamic > > level. If SOAP is going to dominate the World, it is because of the success > > at the WSDL level - which is supposed to translate into "ease of use" for > > programmers. > > > > Unfortunately Witango does not have a native parser for SOAP, so Witango > > can't process the WSDL information - you have to do this part yourself. > > > > Leaving 3rd Party SOAP Products aside for the moment, this brings us to the > > other kind of SOAP. > > > > .................... > > ~ Witango can do SOAP, if the WSDL information is not being changed > > dynamically to a large degree. Then you can read in the WSDL XML and use > > Witango DOM and XPointer to extract some key bits of information, such as > > the names of the available Methods to call, and their Parameter > > "introspection" information and the address of the actual Service. > > > > Based on the information you extract, then you can make "some" assumptions > > about what to do with your actual Service call. If you want to write a > > bigger boat-load of code, then you can compensate for the WSDL being more > > dynamic, but just getting to this point at a basic level is already a large > > amount of code. > > > > Without getting too carried away (not that I have already) with a few more > > issues such as XML over HTTP, DOM (which are the easy parts) and all the > > rest - I just want to say SOAP is possible in Witango, but it's not easy. > > > > I'm sure at some point Phil may implement a SOAP Client / Publisher in the > > Witango Editor - but I'm not privy to his plans, so I don't have any > > information for you. > > > > > > But, if we DID have a SOAP Client for Witango, you would be amazed at what > > we could do :-) > > > > .................... > > Don't loose hope yet, because you still have 3rd Party Products. > > > > On Windows, MSXML can give you some basic SOAP like functionality, which is > > free. But Microsoft also offers the "SOAP Toolkit", which is also free: > > > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/nhp/Default.asp?contentid > > =28000523 > > (Above URL may word-wrap) > > > > The SOAP Toolkit makes many things much easier (i.e., WSDL), but makes other > > parts harder. But this will get you the closest to the current Standards, > > which is important. > > > > Other SOAP add-on tools are available for other platforms as well: > > http://www.soapware.org/directory/4/implementations > > > > Ultimately what we need is a SOAP Client and/or Publisher for Witango. > > Something like the "Search Builder", but writes pure Witango files and > > outwardly operates like any other SOAP Service and where the files can move > > transparently between other platforms like normal Witango files. > > > > I have to tell you, I know it's possible, but it'll be alot of work for > > somebody to create a "SOAP Builder" :-) > > > > .................... > > Anyway, to get back to Steve's question about sharing some code. > > > > I have some code, but because each implementation has been custom to some > > degree (because of the issue of the dynamic WSDL), it may raise more > > questions than the solutions you are looking for. Just try checking out my > > Witango XML-RPC stuff, which is the predecessor to SOAP. > > > > http://xml-extra.net/webpage.xmlx?node=52 > > > > Plus I need to add that some members of the List have paid for some of my > > SOAP work, and it wouldn't be fair to them to just start giving some of it > > away. > > > > But, the knowledge I have gained from each of these experiences is another > > matter. SOAP is not for the faint-of-heart, but it will get easier as time > > goes by, I promise you. > > > > If some of you are interested, we could make SOAP a topic for some special > > training. > > > > --------- > > Anyway, I think I've babbled long enough. I hope this answer some people's > > questions about the topic - or have I just confused you guys more? > > > > One thing is for sure, I know Phil will be working some late evenings and > > weekends for awhile yet - poor guy :-} > > > > In the meantime, here are some educational links of interest: > > > > http://www.w3schools.com/wsdl/default.asp > > > > http://www.w3schools.com/soap/default.asp > > > > > > Cheers............ > > > > Scott Cadillac, > > Witango.org - http://witango.org > > 403-281-6090 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > > Information for the Witango Developer Community > > --------------------- > > > > XML-Extranet - http://xml-extra.net > > 403-281-6090 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > > Well-formed Development (for hire) > > --------------------- > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Steve Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:08 AM > > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: SOAP > > > > > >> You know, I would think Scott will reply to this, but, I am really curious > >> as to how many people here are using SOAP and if there are some,if they > >> would be so kind as to share some code as to how it's being used with > > their > >> applications. (tafs) > >> > >> Thanks > >> > >> Steve > >> > >> > >> > >> On 4/3/03 9:34 PM, "Christian Platt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > >> > >>> Hi list, how far is WITANGO supporting SOAP > >>> > >>> Christian > >>> > >>> > >>> ________________________________________________________________________ > >>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > >> > >> > >> ________________________________________________________________________ > >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > >> > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body > ________________________________________________________________________ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body
