Re: Witango-Talk: SOAP

[Christian Platt]

So if i am right, i do have to do quite a lot of work "by foot".

I think it is not so hard to decode a request, but much more hard to  
make a valid response for a given wsdl Dokument.

We have a request from a mobility portal of a big german car company   
and i have to evaluate the possibility and easyness of setting up such  
a project  in that manner.

Christian

Am Freitag, 04.04.03 um 20:46 Uhr schrieb Scott Cadillac:

You're such an understanding guy Steve :-)

Of course now you've tempted me, so I have some "breif" comments to  
your
questions below.....

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: SOAP

See

I told you Scott would reply. (this only means that he has been with  
SOAP
since the beginning).

Scott, I apologize for trying to put you in a position where your
expertise
has already been reimbursed for monetarily.
I appreciate your prespective.

Although, let it be said; that I do believe that in order to support  
Witango
(and ultimately ourselves)... us developers should make an effort to  
more
freely distribute what code we can, to help others (newbies and  
veterans).
Please see my site http://xml-extra.net

But that we still need to make a living, so understandly there are  
limits to
what we can give away. Thank you.

This is what is so great about this List, because "knowledge" has  
always
been freely given and available here. And I'll always make an effort to
contribute, where I can. Thank you again :-).


Secondly,  I will look at the examples, although some think as I do,   
when
Steve Jobs was at the last Mac World, and he said, "Does anyone really
know
what "DOT NET" is?"

This is just Mac propoganda, because .NET is not running on Mac "yet".  
Check
out the Mono Project for all platforms: http://www.go-mono.com/

I bet you dollars to donuts that Steve Jobs knows full well exactly  
what
..NET is. If he didn't, he is not qualified to run his company.

Here is a cut-and-paste from my site, of my own "breif" description of  
what
..NET is. Of course, it doesn't do justice to all the amazing power  
that .NET
gives you as a developer:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What is the .NET Framework? Briefly, the .NET Framework is the new
development environment for the Windows platform. But it's not just a  
new
way to write "Win32" applications for a standalone Desktop and/or
client-server applications - it's about writing new applications that  
pull
together Desktop, Server and Network Resources (internally and  
externally)
into comprehensive, "connected" objects that can be seemlessly bound to
eachother.

The underlying glue of the .NET Framework is XML Web Services (SOAP and
UDDI), which can also integrate without prejudice with Web Services on  
other
platforms, such as Linux and Mac that might be running Java.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Before .NET, most Win32 programming, i.e., VB, VC++ was the result of  
an
evolution in Windows programming, which of course contains a lot of  
mistakes
and hack workarounds.

..NET is the product of all that experience and a complete rebuild of  
these
older languages. C# is of course a brand new and cohesive starting  
point for
a language that could be described as a combination of the good bits  
from
all the other languages (including Java).

The .NET Framework is simply the environment (API) these new languages
operate in. The Framework is Similar to the Java Virtual Machine - but  
more.


I am not for sure about DOT NET, but I do think that getting on the  
SOAP
band wagon, will in turn, allow one to get on the DOT NET wagon as  
well.
I
am not that concerned as missing the DOT NET train here at the  
beginning
on
the Beta 2 caboose, but, I do want to make sure that I dont' miss out  
on
the
SOAP wagon.
SOAP is a large part of .NET. Are you referring to Windows .NET Server  
2003
Beta 2? Because the final is already at the PC Manufactures and will be
released in a few weeks.

The .NET Runtime "Redistributable" and SDK (both free) has been out of  
Beta
for over a
year now. Lots of people are using, including me.

++++++++++++++
Now, lets be clear here - I'm not using .NET because I think it's  
better
than Witango, but because I think the two can have a integral  
relationship.

Just like Java and Witango can have a integral relationship. Checkout  
the
Java Compiler from Witango when it is released.

These days more than ever, we need to be competative. .NET is cool and  
Java
is cool - but Witango is still at least 4 times faster at building  
code, and
I can tell you that from experience.

Now that I'm branching out on my own to become an independant  
developer,
I've developed a "two-pronged" approach to my business.

-------Pronge One---------
If a customer wants an extensiable web-application solution that  
requires
interoperability ranging from Network Sockets to web enabled Desktop  
Windows
applications, and they might need the source code be compatiable with  
other
desparate developers - then .NET is the answer. BUT, they need to be
prepared for a lengthy development cycle.

(Subsitute Java above for some of you)

-------Pronge Two---------
But, if the customer needs it now, and their requirements are not  
quite so
heavy - then Witango IS the solution.

The speed that you can build Witango applications verses a .NET or Java
application has enormous value to each different kind of customer  
(small
business to corporations). This is the part we need to be mindful of.

(Some might argue that is what the ASP.NET Server Controls are for -  
but
I've used them and find them to be crap, so I build all my ASP.NET  
pages as
pure XML / XSLT output).

........................
This is what I mean by relationship. In fact I've even built a Session
Transfer method that allows me logon to a Witango web-page and segue
seamlessly to a ASP.NET page, and vise versa, without an extra logon -  
but
more on that some other time :-)

Anyway, I'll close with saying: Don't be afraid to try a new web  
language
because this is where you'll see the true strength that Witango has -
especially if you can partner the pros and cons of both languages.

Now if we could just get the rest of the world to see this, then we'd  
be
set, huh?

--
If you've read this far - thank you for your patience. Cheers.........

Thanks again Scott, your detailed explainations are very appreciated  
by me
if not by many more on this list.

Thanks

Steeve



On 4/4/03 10:54 AM, "Scott Cadillac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi Steve, and Christian.

To be honest, I was curious to see who else might respond to this  
first
:-)
I can well imagine that SOAP is on a "to-do" list for Phil, which  
would
one
of many items I'm sure. Witango is not 100% SOAP ready - but you can  
get
pretty darn close.

Yes, I've implemented SOAP in a number of "custom" applications now,  
and
learned a lot in the process.

....................
~ There are two kinds of SOAP you can code for: Dynamic SOAP calls  
(true
SOAP) or SOAP where the "definitions" don't change. Witango can do  
the
later.

....................
~ The standards for SOAP are still evolving and it's pretty hard to  
code
a
moving target - a challenge for even the biggest software companies.
i.e.,
IBM, MS, Sun, etc...

....................
~ True SOAP allows for automated interaction (calls) between two
Services,
where the properties and arguments of those Services can change
dynamically - this is what WSDL is for. WSDL "describes" conditions  
and
argument requirements for a Service you are calling. The WSDL has to  
be
retrieved and processed before you can make the actual Service  
"call" so
that the calling Service knows how to call the Service - follow me?

Here is a very, very simple example of WSDL:

http://xml-extra.net/system-services.asmx?wsdl

This is where most of the Standards changes are happening, at this
dynamic
level. If SOAP is going to dominate the World, it is because of the
success
at the WSDL level - which is supposed to translate into "ease of use"
for
programmers.

Unfortunately Witango does not have a native parser for SOAP, so  
Witango
can't process the WSDL information - you have to do this part  
yourself.

Leaving 3rd Party SOAP Products aside for the moment, this brings us  
to
the
other kind of SOAP.

....................
~ Witango can do SOAP, if the WSDL information is not being changed
dynamically to a large degree. Then you can read in the WSDL XML and  
use
Witango DOM and XPointer to extract some key bits of information,  
such
as
the names of the available Methods to call, and their Parameter
"introspection" information and the address of the actual Service.
Based on the information you extract, then you can make "some"
assumptions
about what to do with your actual Service call. If you want to write  
a
bigger boat-load of code, then you can compensate for the WSDL being
more
dynamic, but just getting to this point at a basic level is already a
large
amount of code.

Without getting too carried away (not that I have already) with a few
more
issues such as XML over HTTP, DOM (which are the easy parts) and all  
the
rest - I just want to say SOAP is possible in Witango, but it's not
easy.
I'm sure at some point Phil may implement a SOAP Client / Publisher  
in
the
Witango Editor - but I'm not privy to his plans, so I don't have any
information for you.
But, if we DID have a SOAP Client for Witango, you would be amazed at
what
we could do :-)

....................
Don't loose hope yet, because you still have 3rd Party Products.
On Windows, MSXML can give you some basic SOAP like functionality,  
which
is
free. But Microsoft also offers the "SOAP Toolkit", which is also  
free:


http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/nhp/ 
Default.asp?contentid
=28000523
(Above URL may word-wrap)
The SOAP Toolkit makes many things much easier (i.e., WSDL), but  
makes
other
parts harder. But this will get you the closest to the current
Standards,
which is important.

Other SOAP add-on tools are available for other platforms as well:
http://www.soapware.org/directory/4/implementations
Ultimately what we need is a SOAP Client and/or Publisher for  
Witango.
Something like the "Search Builder", but writes pure Witango files  
and
outwardly operates like any other SOAP Service and where the files  
can
move
transparently between other platforms like normal Witango files.

I have to tell you, I know it's possible, but it'll be alot of work  
for
somebody to create a "SOAP Builder" :-)

....................
Anyway, to get back to Steve's question about sharing some code.
I have some code, but because each implementation has been custom to
some
degree (because of the issue of the dynamic WSDL), it may raise more
questions than the solutions you are looking for. Just try checking  
out
my
Witango XML-RPC stuff, which is the predecessor to SOAP.

http://xml-extra.net/webpage.xmlx?node=52

Plus I need to add that some members of the List have paid for some  
of
my
SOAP work, and it wouldn't be fair to them to just start giving some  
of
it
away.

But, the knowledge I have gained from each of these experiences is
another
matter. SOAP is not for the faint-of-heart, but it will get easier as
time
goes by, I promise you.

If some of you are interested, we could make SOAP a topic for some
special
training.

---------
Anyway, I think I've babbled long enough. I hope this answer some
people's
questions about the topic - or have I just confused you guys more?

One thing is for sure, I know Phil will be working some late evenings
and
weekends for awhile yet - poor guy :-}

In the meantime, here are some educational links of interest:

http://www.w3schools.com/wsdl/default.asp

http://www.w3schools.com/soap/default.asp

Cheers............

Scott Cadillac,
Witango.org - http://witango.org
403-281-6090 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Information for the Witango Developer Community
---------------------
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403-281-6090 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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---------------------


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:08 AM
Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: SOAP

You know, I would think Scott will reply to this, but, I am really
curious
as to how many people here are using SOAP and if there are some,if  
they
would be so kind as to share some code as to how it's being used  
with
their
applications. (tafs)

Thanks

Steve



On 4/3/03 9:34 PM, "Christian Platt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

Hi list, how far is WITANGO supporting SOAP

Christian



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