Thank you sir! And, thank you so much forthis reply.
Steve (by the way, it helped some with my start with SOAP) On 4/4/03 12:46 PM, "Scott Cadillac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > You're such an understanding guy Steve :-) > > Of course now you've tempted me, so I have some "breif" comments to your > questions below..... > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Steve Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 10:17 AM > Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: SOAP > > >> See >> >> I told you Scott would reply. (this only means that he has been with SOAP >> since the beginning). >> >> Scott, I apologize for trying to put you in a position where your > expertise >> has already been reimbursed for monetarily. > > I appreciate your prespective. > > Although, let it be said; that I do believe that in order to support Witango > (and ultimately ourselves)... us developers should make an effort to more > freely distribute what code we can, to help others (newbies and veterans). > Please see my site http://xml-extra.net > > But that we still need to make a living, so understandly there are limits to > what we can give away. Thank you. > > This is what is so great about this List, because "knowledge" has always > been freely given and available here. And I'll always make an effort to > contribute, where I can. Thank you again :-). > > >> Secondly, I will look at the examples, although some think as I do, when >> Steve Jobs was at the last Mac World, and he said, "Does anyone really > know >> what "DOT NET" is?" >> > > This is just Mac propoganda, because .NET is not running on Mac "yet". Check > out the Mono Project for all platforms: http://www.go-mono.com/ > > I bet you dollars to donuts that Steve Jobs knows full well exactly what > .NET is. If he didn't, he is not qualified to run his company. > > Here is a cut-and-paste from my site, of my own "breif" description of what > .NET is. Of course, it doesn't do justice to all the amazing power that .NET > gives you as a developer: > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > What is the .NET Framework? Briefly, the .NET Framework is the new > development environment for the Windows platform. But it's not just a new > way to write "Win32" applications for a standalone Desktop and/or > client-server applications - it's about writing new applications that pull > together Desktop, Server and Network Resources (internally and externally) > into comprehensive, "connected" objects that can be seemlessly bound to > eachother. > > The underlying glue of the .NET Framework is XML Web Services (SOAP and > UDDI), which can also integrate without prejudice with Web Services on other > platforms, such as Linux and Mac that might be running Java. > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > Before .NET, most Win32 programming, i.e., VB, VC++ was the result of an > evolution in Windows programming, which of course contains a lot of mistakes > and hack workarounds. > > .NET is the product of all that experience and a complete rebuild of these > older languages. C# is of course a brand new and cohesive starting point for > a language that could be described as a combination of the good bits from > all the other languages (including Java). > > The .NET Framework is simply the environment (API) these new languages > operate in. The Framework is Similar to the Java Virtual Machine - but more. > > >> I am not for sure about DOT NET, but I do think that getting on the SOAP >> band wagon, will in turn, allow one to get on the DOT NET wagon as well. > I >> am not that concerned as missing the DOT NET train here at the beginning > on >> the Beta 2 caboose, but, I do want to make sure that I dont' miss out on > the >> SOAP wagon. > > SOAP is a large part of .NET. Are you referring to Windows .NET Server 2003 > Beta 2? Because the final is already at the PC Manufactures and will be > released in a few weeks. > > The .NET Runtime "Redistributable" and SDK (both free) has been out of Beta > for over a > year now. Lots of people are using, including me. > > ++++++++++++++ > Now, lets be clear here - I'm not using .NET because I think it's better > than Witango, but because I think the two can have a integral relationship. > > Just like Java and Witango can have a integral relationship. Checkout the > Java Compiler from Witango when it is released. > > These days more than ever, we need to be competative. .NET is cool and Java > is cool - but Witango is still at least 4 times faster at building code, and > I can tell you that from experience. > > Now that I'm branching out on my own to become an independant developer, > I've developed a "two-pronged" approach to my business. > > -------Pronge One--------- > If a customer wants an extensiable web-application solution that requires > interoperability ranging from Network Sockets to web enabled Desktop Windows > applications, and they might need the source code be compatiable with other > desparate developers - then .NET is the answer. BUT, they need to be > prepared for a lengthy development cycle. > > (Subsitute Java above for some of you) > > -------Pronge Two--------- > But, if the customer needs it now, and their requirements are not quite so > heavy - then Witango IS the solution. > > The speed that you can build Witango applications verses a .NET or Java > application has enormous value to each different kind of customer (small > business to corporations). This is the part we need to be mindful of. > > (Some might argue that is what the ASP.NET Server Controls are for - but > I've used them and find them to be crap, so I build all my ASP.NET pages as > pure XML / XSLT output). > > > ....................... > This is what I mean by relationship. In fact I've even built a Session > Transfer method that allows me logon to a Witango web-page and segue > seamlessly to a ASP.NET page, and vise versa, without an extra logon - but > more on that some other time :-) > > > Anyway, I'll close with saying: Don't be afraid to try a new web language > because this is where you'll see the true strength that Witango has - > especially if you can partner the pros and cons of both languages. > > Now if we could just get the rest of the world to see this, then we'd be > set, huh? > > -- > If you've read this far - thank you for your patience. Cheers......... > > >> Thanks again Scott, your detailed explainations are very appreciated by me >> if not by many more on this list. >> >> Thanks >> >> Steeve >> >> >> >> >> On 4/4/03 10:54 AM, "Scott Cadillac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>> Hi Steve, and Christian. >>> >>> To be honest, I was curious to see who else might respond to this first > :-) >>> >>> I can well imagine that SOAP is on a "to-do" list for Phil, which would > one >>> of many items I'm sure. Witango is not 100% SOAP ready - but you can get >>> pretty darn close. >>> >>> Yes, I've implemented SOAP in a number of "custom" applications now, and >>> learned a lot in the process. >>> >>> .................... >>> ~ There are two kinds of SOAP you can code for: Dynamic SOAP calls (true >>> SOAP) or SOAP where the "definitions" don't change. Witango can do the >>> later. >>> >>> .................... >>> ~ The standards for SOAP are still evolving and it's pretty hard to code > a >>> moving target - a challenge for even the biggest software companies. > i.e., >>> IBM, MS, Sun, etc... >>> >>> .................... >>> ~ True SOAP allows for automated interaction (calls) between two > Services, >>> where the properties and arguments of those Services can change >>> dynamically - this is what WSDL is for. WSDL "describes" conditions and >>> argument requirements for a Service you are calling. The WSDL has to be >>> retrieved and processed before you can make the actual Service "call" so >>> that the calling Service knows how to call the Service - follow me? >>> >>> Here is a very, very simple example of WSDL: >>> >>> http://xml-extra.net/system-services.asmx?wsdl >>> >>> This is where most of the Standards changes are happening, at this > dynamic >>> level. If SOAP is going to dominate the World, it is because of the > success >>> at the WSDL level - which is supposed to translate into "ease of use" > for >>> programmers. >>> >>> Unfortunately Witango does not have a native parser for SOAP, so Witango >>> can't process the WSDL information - you have to do this part yourself. >>> >>> Leaving 3rd Party SOAP Products aside for the moment, this brings us to > the >>> other kind of SOAP. >>> >>> .................... >>> ~ Witango can do SOAP, if the WSDL information is not being changed >>> dynamically to a large degree. Then you can read in the WSDL XML and use >>> Witango DOM and XPointer to extract some key bits of information, such > as >>> the names of the available Methods to call, and their Parameter >>> "introspection" information and the address of the actual Service. >>> >>> Based on the information you extract, then you can make "some" > assumptions >>> about what to do with your actual Service call. If you want to write a >>> bigger boat-load of code, then you can compensate for the WSDL being > more >>> dynamic, but just getting to this point at a basic level is already a > large >>> amount of code. >>> >>> Without getting too carried away (not that I have already) with a few > more >>> issues such as XML over HTTP, DOM (which are the easy parts) and all the >>> rest - I just want to say SOAP is possible in Witango, but it's not > easy. >>> >>> I'm sure at some point Phil may implement a SOAP Client / Publisher in > the >>> Witango Editor - but I'm not privy to his plans, so I don't have any >>> information for you. >>> >>> >>> But, if we DID have a SOAP Client for Witango, you would be amazed at > what >>> we could do :-) >>> >>> .................... >>> Don't loose hope yet, because you still have 3rd Party Products. >>> >>> On Windows, MSXML can give you some basic SOAP like functionality, which > is >>> free. But Microsoft also offers the "SOAP Toolkit", which is also free: >>> >>> > http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/nhp/Default.asp?contentid >>> =28000523 >>> (Above URL may word-wrap) >>> >>> The SOAP Toolkit makes many things much easier (i.e., WSDL), but makes > other >>> parts harder. But this will get you the closest to the current > Standards, >>> which is important. >>> >>> Other SOAP add-on tools are available for other platforms as well: >>> http://www.soapware.org/directory/4/implementations >>> >>> Ultimately what we need is a SOAP Client and/or Publisher for Witango. >>> Something like the "Search Builder", but writes pure Witango files and >>> outwardly operates like any other SOAP Service and where the files can > move >>> transparently between other platforms like normal Witango files. >>> >>> I have to tell you, I know it's possible, but it'll be alot of work for >>> somebody to create a "SOAP Builder" :-) >>> >>> .................... >>> Anyway, to get back to Steve's question about sharing some code. >>> >>> I have some code, but because each implementation has been custom to > some >>> degree (because of the issue of the dynamic WSDL), it may raise more >>> questions than the solutions you are looking for. Just try checking out > my >>> Witango XML-RPC stuff, which is the predecessor to SOAP. >>> >>> http://xml-extra.net/webpage.xmlx?node=52 >>> >>> Plus I need to add that some members of the List have paid for some of > my >>> SOAP work, and it wouldn't be fair to them to just start giving some of > it >>> away. >>> >>> But, the knowledge I have gained from each of these experiences is > another >>> matter. SOAP is not for the faint-of-heart, but it will get easier as > time >>> goes by, I promise you. >>> >>> If some of you are interested, we could make SOAP a topic for some > special >>> training. >>> >>> --------- >>> Anyway, I think I've babbled long enough. I hope this answer some > people's >>> questions about the topic - or have I just confused you guys more? >>> >>> One thing is for sure, I know Phil will be working some late evenings > and >>> weekends for awhile yet - poor guy :-} >>> >>> In the meantime, here are some educational links of interest: >>> >>> http://www.w3schools.com/wsdl/default.asp >>> >>> http://www.w3schools.com/soap/default.asp >>> >>> >>> Cheers............ >>> >>> Scott Cadillac, >>> Witango.org - http://witango.org >>> 403-281-6090 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> -- >>> Information for the Witango Developer Community >>> --------------------- >>> >>> XML-Extranet - http://xml-extra.net >>> 403-281-6090 - [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> -- >>> Well-formed Development (for hire) >>> --------------------- >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Steve Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 8:08 AM >>> Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: SOAP >>> >>> >>>> You know, I would think Scott will reply to this, but, I am really > curious >>>> as to how many people here are using SOAP and if there are some,if they >>>> would be so kind as to share some code as to how it's being used with >>> their >>>> applications. (tafs) >>>> >>>> Thanks >>>> >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 4/3/03 9:34 PM, "Christian Platt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi list, how far is WITANGO supporting SOAP >>>>> >>>>> Christian >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> > ________________________________________________________________________ >>>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body >>>> >>>> >>>> > ________________________________________________________________________ >>>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body >>>> >>> >>> ________________________________________________________________________ >>> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body >> >> >> ________________________________________________________________________ >> TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body >> > > ________________________________________________________________________ > TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body ________________________________________________________________________ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: send a plain text/US ASCII email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe witango-talk in the message body
