Re: Witango-Talk: Loss of Session State Issues.

Robert Garcia Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:12:56 -0700

Must be nice. It actually isn't bad after a while. I know exactly what works and what doesn't right out of the box, so I stay away from problem stuff.

I would love to use more flash, but all of my apps are designed to bring revenue to my clients, either through ecommerce or lead generation tools that I have written. When one customer says they cannot use your site because they are behind a corporate network and they are not allowed to install any plugins, and this is a huge customer that could mean big business. I cannot tell you how many times this has happened to me.

I have done huge flash sites for customers, completely data integrated with witango, and slick, only to dump them for HTML because the client gets hammered by a few customers.

I now make my clients sign an acknowledgement of my warning if they want to go all flash, and they are serving the outside world. In the end, unless they want to maintain the expense of two sites html/flash, it is not a good idea.

Robert.

On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 11:34 AM, Scott Cadillac wrote:

My Hat is off to you Robert,

Coding for general consumers is an artform, and an exercise in punishment at the same time. I have a lot of respect for your efforts.

Fortunately and unfortunately (depending on your view point), I only build business applications for Intranets.
--------------------
My rules of thumb are nearly the exact opposite:
Use simple javascript
~~ Use JScript 5.5 minimum to the fullest extent. ~~ Conditionally render client-side XSLT to produce HTML from XML sent from the Server.
Use server side solutions whenever possible. Don't use javascript if
you can do it server side.
~~ Use client-side solutions whenever possible. Only get the Server to do work the browser can't do. ~~ Minimize the number of trips to the Server. ~~ Keep the work load on the Server to an absolute minimum.
Do not have a link on the site that does not contain the
<@userreferenceargument>, cookies are not as reliable as you
would hope.
~~ Only use session-cookies. A published Intranet Use Policy.
Do not build flash only elements. Stick with clean, tried and
true HTML.
~~ Flash has a place in business applications, if done with professionals in mind who prefer functionality over whizziness.

Use flash only for intros and non critical elements.
~~ I agree here. I find Jscript and XSLT much more reliable.
Be careful with fancy drop down menus and such that don't work on
everything.
~~ Not an issue. Exclusive MSIE only.
~~ MSIE also supports true Modal dialogs, use them where appropriate.
Test all your work with the lowest common denominator. AOL on dialup.
~~ Test with 800x600 with minimum MS Internet Explorer 5.0 on Windows 98 (no patches), on a 10Bt Network connection.

Cheers.....
-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Garcia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 11:54 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Loss of Session State Issues.
I do some coporate sites, but most of my work is large business to
consumer apps, and I develop to be compatible with
everything. The only
browser I won't support now is netscape 4.x.
Rules of thumb that I have developed over the years are:
Use simple javascript
Use server side solutions whenever possible. Don't use javascript if
you can do it server side.
Do not have a link on the site that does not contain the
<@userreferenceargument>, cookies are not as reliable as you
would hope.
Do not build flash only elements. Stick with clean, tried and
true HTML.
Use flash only for intros and non critical elements.
Be careful with fancy drop down menus and such that don't work on
everything.
Test all your work with the lowest common denominator. AOL on dialup.
I am sure there are more, but these are what come off the top of my
head. If you are doing corporate intranets, you can disregard
this, but
consumer compatibility is virtually an artform.
Robert.

On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 10:23 AM, Atrix Wolfe wrote:

oh my gosh...

do you know if netscape on mac behaves any better? we have
had some bad
experiences with it but havent tested it as thoroughly as IE.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Web Dude" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Loss of Session State Issues.
I gave up on IE on the Mac too. I don't even develop for
it anymore.
I heard that Micro$oft is going to be pulling the product
anyway.....YIPPEE SKIPPEE!
Hey Robert,

We too have intermitant problems with browsers, but our
problems come
more
in the way of javascript not always functioning (we use
javascript to
make
sure dates are valid etc, keep the user in bounds) and
browsers arent
always
passing the arguments like they should.

Its very odd and disturbing and somewhat frustrating when
you have
errors
that disrupt your clients work flow that are because the
browser isnt
doing
what its supposed to!

We have found that browsers for macs have a whole slew of
problems
and
that
mac IE is a terrible product...in some versions some of the
intermittant
argument passing is there so you upgrade and then at the
next version
thats
fixed but then its something else.

just wanted you to know were feelin your pain too (;

::growl::
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 20, 2003 2:14 AM
Subject: Re: Witango-Talk: Loss of Session State Issues.
The only thing I would add to that phil, is that I have
the problem
with browsers when I am sure cookies are not disabled
with the old
delete code, and it is intermittent. Mostly not
working, sometimes
working.

I am using the default setup on the server for userkey,
and do no
altering of cookies and such.

Thank you for the info on how the newer servers look for
userreference.
Robert.

On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 11:43 PM, Phil Wade wrote:

I should note here that post args were not searched in T2K or
Witango 5
prior to the 058 build when the server was trying to
locate the
user
reference so the T2K server would only look in the cookies and
searchargs.
The 5.0.1.058 server and above looks for a user reference in the
following
order:
1.  user reference cookie
2.  user reference search arg
3.  user reference post arg
Once a user reference is found, the server will no
longer continue
to
search
for a user reference in the remaining contexts so now the server
will
use
the first user reference found and not the last.
Search arguments can only be up to 255 chars long so if
the server
receives
concatenated search arg data from the Browser it just
uses it. For
this
reason if you are not using user reference cookies and
are relying
on
the
user reference search arg it is important to put the
user reference
at
the
beginning of the search args, not at the end.
These changes should not have any affect on existing
code, except
to
make
the delete of the search builders work with browsers that have
cookies
disabled (see code below).  The delete action passed the user
reference via
a postarg and always created a new user session in this
instance.
This was
not a big issue as the search builder did not rely on any user
variables
until it was extended by a user.
Phil

On 20/8/03 2:31 PM, "Robert Garcia" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The interesting thing about this, is I have a bunch of
simple web
admin
apps with the witango default code, and I haven't had
the problem
before. I think it started around v058 or so.

If I use this code:
<form method=post action="<@appfile>" name=deleteMe>
<input type=hidden name="_userreference"
value="<@userreference>">
<input type=hidden name="CommonlabSchedule_uid1"
value="<@COLUMN
"Common.epxLessonSched.rowid">">
<input type=hidden name="_function" value="delete">
<INPUT TYPE=SUBMIT VALUE="Delete Record">
</form>
It seems to work reliably, So I will have to make a
lot of minor
changes.

Robert.

On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 08:50 PM, Scott
Cadillac wrote:
Hi Robert,

When METHOD=GET is used in an HTML form, like in your first
example,
all the
FORM element names and values (such as your hidden fields) are
automatically
concatenated to the value of the ACTION attribute. This then
appears
in the
address bar of your browser.
BUT....if the ACTION attribute already contains other search
arguments
(such
as <@USERREFERENCEARGUMENT>), then they are sometimes
replaced by
the
concatenated FORM elements. This is a classic pain-in-the-***
issue.
Your <@USERREFERENCEARGUMENT> is being removed which
can cause
you
to
loose
Session state. In the first FORM example, just
replace METHOD=GET
with
METHOD=POST and it should work.
But of course, that doesn't explain your second or
third example,
or
why
your Session-cookie didn't pickup the slack.
Are Session-cookies disabled deliberately in your
browser? If so,
then
checking things like <@USERREFERENCEARGUMENT> for all
your links
will
be
necessary. This includes the TAF files before your
actual delete
request.

Also, checking the value of your USERKEY setting in
witango.ini
could
be
important too.
If Session-cookies are supposed to be working, then something
strange
is
certainly happening.
Have you tried seeing what's being passed back and
forth with an
HTTP
Sniffer of some kind? This will show you exactly the
values are
being
sent
to the Server (both session-cookies and GET and POST
arguments).
I
recommend
www.httpsniffer.com
Hope this helps. Cheers....
Scott Cadillac,
Witango.org - http://witango.org
403-281-6090 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Garcia [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 9:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Witango-Talk: Loss of Session State Issues.
I have been having some problems for a while with some admin
pages
that
require a login, so session state is paramount.
If I use the standard code Witango uses for deleting a record,
most
of
the
time, state is lost:
<FORM METHOD=GET ACTION="<@APPFILE>?<@userreferenceargument>">
<INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="_function" VALUE="delete">
<INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="CommonlabSchedule_uid1"
VALUE="<@COLUMN
"Common.epxLessonSched.rowid">">
<INPUT TYPE=SUBMIT VALUE="Delete">
</FORM>
I have also tried these variations:
<FORM METHOD=GET ACTION="<@APPFILE>">
<INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="_function" VALUE="delete">
<INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="CommonlabSchedule_uid1"
VALUE="<@COLUMN
"Common.epxLessonSched.rowid">">
<INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="_userReference"
VALUE="<@UserReference>">
<INPUT TYPE=SUBMIT VALUE="Delete">
</FORM>
<FORM METHOD=POST ACTION="<@APPFILE>">
<INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="_function" VALUE="delete">
<INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="CommonlabSchedule_uid1"
VALUE="<@COLUMN
"Common.epxLessonSched.rowid">">
<INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="_userReference"
VALUE="<@UserReference>">
<INPUT TYPE=SUBMIT VALUE="Delete">
</FORM>
However, if I use this code, I never lose state:

<p><a
href="<@appfile>?_function=delete&CommonlabSchedule_uid1=<@COLUMN

"Common.epxLessonSched.rowid">&<@userreferenceargument>">Delete
this
Record</p>

Anyone else having these issues, or have any ideas?

--
Robert Garcia
President - BigHead Technology
CTO - eventpix.com
2781 N Carlmont Pl
Simi Valley, Ca 93065
ph: 805.522.8577 - cell: 805.501.1390
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ -
http://theradmac.com/
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--
 Robert Garcia
 President - BigHead Technology
 CTO - eventpix.com
 2781 N Carlmont Pl
 Simi Valley, Ca 93065
 ph: 805.522.8577 - cell: 805.501.1390
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ -
http://theradmac.com/

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--
Robert Garcia
President - BigHead Technology
CTO - eventpix.com
2781 N Carlmont Pl
Simi Valley, Ca 93065
ph: 805.522.8577 - cell: 805.501.1390
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ - http://theradmac.com/
_______________________________________________________________________ _ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/maillist.taf

_______________________________________________________________________ _ TO UNSUBSCRIBE: Go to http://www.witango.com/maillist.taf

--

Robert Garcia
President - BigHead Technology
CTO - eventpix.com
2781 N Carlmont Pl
Simi Valley, Ca 93065
ph: 805.522.8577 - cell: 805.501.1390
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/ - http://theradmac.com/

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Re: Witango-Talk: Loss of Session State Issues.

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