Hi there guys and gals,
Just read this post from Robert.
I can second the comments expressed in this email - it is basically
where I'm at.
My task for myself was to find an open source solution which would
run on multiple platforms where my clients are not locked in, with
great dev tools and solid reliable performance, and good support that
would likely be around in ten years.
Zend's have great pre and post support and while I am not in the same
galaxy as Robert in terms of deployments Zend PHP I have found Zend
to be a great environment.
Still use Witango for some installations that I don't need to
transfer. Love to swap my Mac OS X license with someone for a Win
license if I can so I can run a backup server for my existing Witango
server.
cheers
Garth
On 05/10/2007, at 3:47 AM, Robert Garcia wrote:
First, [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the right address. I have
mail in my inbox that they have sent to me, and I have sent back.
Second, Scott, I hold you in high respect. Very sorry to offend
you. However, in keeping my response short, that is how I see it. I
have example after example of this being the case. It may be a bit
crude, and I am sure I could always use a bit of softening around
my edges. First of all, there is a long list of people that have
emailed support, for valid reasons, and even sometimes within the
frame witango should be supporting, and they ignore. I would say
that ANY company that IGNORES support inquiries like this, has
HORRIBLE support. At the very least, they should receive even a
canned response that instructs them how to properly receive support.
Next time, in deference to you, I will choose better words for my
response, and I apologize if I offended you or anyone else.
However, I would have substantively said the same thing.
I don't do business with Phil, and I have no intention to, except
maybe someday to get a decent studio for old projects that are not
worth porting to PHP. I stay on this list because I still have
clients that use witango that use my services, a couple of them
porting to php from witango, others porting oracle to mysql.
Things don't need to improve for me, they are quite well.
Your statement to Gene about him making better decisions on
technology kind of puts me back a bit. I understand his frustration
and it really bothers me when I see any company including witango
treat its customers that way.
For the record, I didn't leave witango as my main development
platform because I thought PHP was a better technology. I left
because of the horrible support from Witango, and the attitude of
Phil and company. It was only after these issues, I thoroughly
investigated my options for leaving, and found Zend/PHP. I found it
to be FAR superior, MUCH cheaper, and incredibly supported.
Here are 2 examples to compare:
1. One of my clients is still using witango, but in the LONG
process of complete conversion. They are currently doing 20 million
dollars a month in the ecommerce system I wrote for them in
witango. Witango is doing well, but showing its weaknesses,
particularly in debugging and solving bugs in a extremely complex
application.
About 18 months, maybe 2 years even, ago, this company was planning
on upgrading many of its oracle systems, and marrying them better
to the witango system. At the time, there were a lot of people in
the company complaining about why the hell a "Witango" was being
used, and why not something like .NET or ColdFusion. But the
principles of the company defended it, in their own words "Witango
is the only F*ing thing that works in this company thanks to
BigHead, and we aren't fixing what ain't broke." They flew me down
to L.A. for several meetings with this HUGE oracle firm, that if I
named, you would know. The first few days was constant jabbing by
the oracle firm about "Witango", and it was very annoying. After
they saw what we had done, and how fast we did it, and made
changes, they started to shut up. And after a while, started to ask
me more questions. After a while the head engineer asks me how he
can get a copy. I tell him he can download a trial and give him URL.
A couple days later, I ask him if he tried witango. He says yes I
did, but I tossed it. I asked why. He said he downloaded it, and
went to install, but the documentation was lacking in a few areas
and so he emailed support. He didn't get a response, so he called.
He was told he would receive no support, and the only thing
afforded him was that he could join THIS list. He also said he was
treated poorly, and so it wasn't a product he wanted to sample. He
said it was a shame, because he was looking for something for rapid
prototyping and something for small projects.
I saw this happen several times and I knew I needed to have a
company behind me, that I could feel good supporting. I don't think
I made a bad tech decision, I think Phil and company screwed things
up enough, that I couldn't stay. And my decision to use witango was
long before they even came around.
Now another example:
2. When I started really pursuing PHP, I didn't feel good about
just PHP. I needed something that would cluster/load balance, and
also cache data well. PHP can do this, but with open source hacks
and such. And I wanted server support. Then I found Zend. From the
movies and site, it seemed it had all, and much more, and only
$1000 per cpu. And that is $1000 per CPU, not CPU core. So a 4 core
CPU is still $1000, and the studio is only $300, and far superior
to witango studio also. Just the idea of line by line debugging,
like I enjoy in other languages, was an incredible thought.
So I call Zend, they assign me a sales rep. I tell them what I am
thinking of doing. Switching all my large projects over to Zend/
PHP. But a simple one server demo for 30 days wouldn't do it for
me. So she gets me a special set of demo licenses, that are not
dumbed down in any way. She gives me 90 days for 3 servers, so I
can test the entire system, and its clustering capabilities. The
normal Zend demo, has the clustering, and zend optimization turned
off. Not so in my demo. She also assigns me a pre sales support
person, and I get an email and a phone number from him.
Now, the zend docs were great, much better than what I have been
used to in witango, however I still needed help with all of the
options in clustering, and the cacheing classes. Sometimes I
emailed, and a couple of times I called. But the pre sales support
was incredible, and helped me get a full demo.
After a couple of months, I purchased 6 server licenses and 3
studios for my team. I have never looked back, it is an incredible
system, and it even monitors itself. I get emails to me whenever a
php file runs to slow, or there is an error. The email tells me
EVERYTHING about the context of the error, and how to reproduce. I
can even click a button to load the context into my studio and
debug it. Its amazing.
I have since had some support issues. I go to the site, fill out a
ticket, and have always had a response within hours, and they
follow through, until the ticket is closed.
Now here is the thing, I know they didn't treat me any more special
than anybody else. I am sure that if I sent you to my sales rep,
they would treat you as well.
Conclusion:
Which company would YOU rather have behind you in your development?
--
Robert Garcia
President - BigHead Technology
VP Application Development - eventpix.com
13653 West Park Dr
Magalia, Ca 95954
ph: 530.645.4040 x222 fax: 530.645.4040
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/
On Oct 4, 2007, at 9:29 AM, Scott Cadillac wrote:
To be fair, so I'm not just criticizing Gene,
Personally I think your advice here Robert is also very rude and
unprofessional.
If you were Phil, would you want to respond to such a hostile
public forum?
I'm not saying I'm without fault. I've done my own share of
bashing in the past, and paid the price in good dose of returned
criticism.
If you can't do business with Phil under the conditions that so
clearly exists - then move on. Otherwise make the most of it and
help each other.
Have a nice day, and I hope things improve for you as well.
Scott Cadillac
~ 902-624-1266
~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Wed, October 3, 2007 6:13 pm, Robert Garcia
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
You have to piss them off on this list, and then they respond. Of
give them a credit card number. Those are the only ways that are
most
likely to work.
Their support is horrible.
--
Robert Garcia
President - BigHead Technology
VP Application Development - eventpix.com
13653 West Park Dr
Magalia, Ca 95954
ph: 530.645.4040 x222 fax: 530.645.4040
[EMAIL PROTECTED] - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bighead.net/ - http://eventpix.com/
On Oct 3, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Wolf, Gene wrote:
Hey all, quick question. We are reorganizing here at DRS and
moving our servers to our data center in Dallas (we're in Florida)
and centralizing our networking support there as well. This is all
a good thing. Needless to say Witango is an unknown to everyone in
Dallas and they want to understand as much as they can about
Witango and supporting it. They have written several e-mails to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and I've been told they have received
no reply.
I have always used this forum to get answers and do not know the
best way to put our networking and support folks in touch with
Witango support. How do you folks do it? Do you basically rely on
this list, or is there some e-mail address other than the one
listed above that should be used for support issues? Thanks!
Gene Wolf
Supervisor, Business Systems
DRS Sensors & Targeting Systems-Optronics
2330 Commerce Park Drive NE
Palm Bay, Florida 32905
Phone: 321-309-0685
321-309-0202 (fax)
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