Hi again... Strange ....how things work. MFC was a hottest technology in the market with the release of Visual Studio 6.0. MS has reaped huge unparalleled benefits from it. Ofcourse that was time and tide. Now the tide is with .NET. I have to admit that MS has done good in developing a good support for C# and VB.NET as complete languages. My only regret is that, in doing so, it has let down a lot of C++ developers, who were once in plenty. I am talking about MS environment. There are a lot of C++ devs working on other environments. I only started programming with Visual C++ in 2005. Started with VS 6.0 and after a brief while switched to VS 2005. Even till then MS showed some interests in enhancing the language further. But they failed badly. It is not only about developing IDE, but about being compliant with standards committee and as a person with a strong liking for Visual C++, I have much to say against the developments in VC++ since 2005.
I have even watched the videos on what is being done by Visual C++ team and their objectives. It seems that they are not in any mood to something ambitious. For instance, let us talk about intellisense and code snippets features provided by IDE. The upcoming version of IDE has done one thing good that is removing the .ncb files and introducing SQL Server compact to buffer up the intellisense on the application load and calling only those features that are requested or close to being requested by the user. That would help the intellisense prevent breaking or searching for something every now and then. As the presenter in the video was saying about it and demoing it, it was waiting! Let us give him a fair chance and say that it will work. But why dunt they look at Visual Assist? MS gives a hell lot of reasons for autocompletion not working in VC++, one being C++ poor reflection capabilities. Visual Assist does that in style; I have not used it but I have seen it work on one of the MSDN videos itself. Also, MVPs working on VC++ advocate using Visual Assist. In order that I know about it, I asked and put up a question on MSDN dashboard and other forums with MS MVPs, but I did not get any answer. I simply cannot digest this discrepancy. MS itself uses C++ for many of their applications; earlier it used to admit it and now shying away from it. Introduction of tr1 library was just to divert the C++ coders from Boost regular expression library. As I said, MFC was badly designed and MS did not do anything to protect it. MS kept reaping benefits till it continued to do so. Even today it is gaining them a lot, but it is certainly not overwhelming boom, I am not certain, but have read somewhere that Boost libraries outperform their STL counter parts. I have not read anything like that from MS C++ team since its dawn. They consider it to be an achievement, if they catch up with something. .NET is a product of such a strategy; although I like it. It started as a counter product for J2EE. In that process MS invented a new language C# quite close to C++ for C programmers and improved VB.NET taking it further from VB 6. Being a premier organization and having all the access to the most brilliant coders, it should have been pioneer in passing on the suggestions to C++ standards committee, but it is nowhere in the list. On the contrary, C++ wing in MS is sitting as if they were doomed and waiting for the standards to be out and then make a move. By then people look for alternatives. Coming to .NET ADOs and stuff, you are right. I did not know that we can work with ODBC in similar fashion as ADO.NET or can we? Can we have a disconnected architecture and caching capabilities? How performant is that using ODBC? Good to hear that Wt supports XML. Although, I differ on the your opinion to not rating XML in good books as that is the only format I know when it comes to cross talk between 2 different databases over the web; binary is too much work. Yes it might be awfully slow. May be it is horrible. And I suppose that you said that about XML it in context of presenting the data. If so, then yes I agree. XML has its own use in the form of tools like MS Build and Nant, code snippets, configuration files, etc. There are many representation formats like xsd, xslt, that help us understand complex designs easier. Ofcourse, this is my opinion with very little experience I have in XML. Not sure if build automation, configuration, data-porting, database schema design, site maps, etc. would have been easy enough without XML. I am using IE 8.0 now. On reading your email, I checked it out in firefox 3.x and in that it works well. So I guess the witty admins have to look out for that. Regarding the other problem, let it go. I will see when I work with witty sometime sooner as that was in wt 2.2.4. Thanks, Bhushan On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 11:06 AM, OvermindDL1 <[email protected]> wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi OvermindDL1. > > I wonder what that display name means...but not only that. I am wondering > on > > how quickly you were to respond and thanks for that. Pardon me for my > > noviceness, but I was only concerned about getting stuck with a library > that > > was badly designed. Having worked with MFC for quite some time, I can > only > > not stop saying about how many design flaws there were in it. To name a > few, > > no use of namespaces, unnecessary capitalization and mapping of events to > > macros everywhere, limited support for web programming, Started as being > non > > No joke there, MFC was *horrible*. A very bad C++ wrapper around a > bad C interface... > > And I responded fast because I am a bit bored at work right now, half > the system is down so not much more to do but check email and read. > :) > No programming at work, cannot wait till I get off, almost out... > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > wrote: > > compliant with ISO C++ and since then it is trying to keep up. MS has > done > > well trying to keep up. But after looking at Boost, I think MS has to do > a > > lot to catch up. I am saying this, partly to explain my mindset in > > understanding C++. After looking at Boost and STL, I find what most C++ > > developers are saying and working upon. People working on environments > other > > Consequently, Wt uses boost heavily for some of its parts. Wt works > quite perfectly with no code changes between Windows and Linux. > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > wrote: > > than windows, know about all these, while those working on windows have > no > > option but to use MFC or ATL or plain win32 API. And most of all I have > seen > > that they have real difficulty in working with C++ on other OSes and to > > develop a true cross platform code. Well that would explain myself a bit > > more...Also it is a good news that people are already working on a > database > > layer to work with witty. I have n't gotten real interests in managed > world > > as MS is almost investing everything in .NET and C++ is almost waiting > for > > C++ standards to be out. Like yours, my liking for C++ is immense and I > > would like to be in your shoes some day. My experience is only about 5 > years > > in IT (majority C++) that is about 1/3rd of yours. Those people cannot > even > > look for anything good out there. For instance, Boost is ever performant > and > > has matured over years. Intel has produced a parallel computing library > > before MS. Having said that I would also like to admit that my real > liking > > to C++ began with Visual C++. It is still the best to work with if > > Ditto, even for my Linux work I still use Visual C++ with the Visual > Assist addon, *nothing* tops that combo. If you have the money to > burn and you have VC++ standard or higher, you definitely should get > Visual Assist by Whole Tomato. > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > wrote: > > implemented properly and with least reliance on libraries like MFC. Let > us > > say relying on MFC only for UI for instance although widgets are better. > I > > still like to develop in Visual C++ and platform portability can be > achieved > > using Visual C++ as well but MS is not keen on providing and investing on > it > > to safeguard windows for some reason. > > The only reason Windows got so big so fast was due to its API, it was > easy to program for, but they made their API different then everything > else out just to make it hard to port. Heck, not even a Java app runs > on both Windows and Linux perfectly unless it is really simple because > of those differences. C++ has *SO*MANY* libraries that hide all that > platform specific crap that C++ really is the > write-once-complileAndRun-everywhere language, no matter how complex > you get. > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > wrote: > > BTW, there are lot of advantages of disconnected architecture in the form > of > > datasets provided by .NET. Can you tell me there is any true advantage > > having the disconnected architecture apart from the fact that it saves > the > > costs of keeping the database connection open unnecessarily? I suppose, > > since witty people are working on a layer that will astract the database > > functionality required and since it is a separate layer, it will use a > > disconnected architecture...? or not? Since you use SQLite personally, > what > > architecture does it use and what are advantages you are reaping out of > it? > > I personally do not like .NET's ADO, it is 'easier' to use, but it > abstracts too much of the usefulness away. Python's sqlalchemy I > think is an ADO done right. .NET's ADO is just a .NET layer over ODBC > (*hack*cough*), and you can use ODBC (*hack*cough*) in C++ directly > anyway. No, I do not like ODBC (*hack*cough*), it is poorly designed > and very slow for fetching/saving, as .NET's ADO is. > > Personally I actually embedded Python into my apps (not a Wt app yet, > but I might) so I can use things like sqlalchemy (which supports > everything from SQLite to MySQL to PostGreSQL to MSSQL to Oracle to > even more...), it is not 'fast', but the database itself is not fast > so you do not really notice. There are some Boost devs working on a > sqlalchemy-like abstraction for databases for C++ though, I will > probably switch to it when it is done, but otherwise, I would say wait > until Wt's database layer is released (very shortly now from what I > gather). > > Also, I personally recommend getting the thought of XML out of your > head, that is a god-awful data format, but yes Wt supports it, but I > personally prefer something like protocol-buffers or sexpressions, > much easier to read (and in the case of protocol-buffers, can be in a > *tight* binary format, or an easy to read but slower text format). I > still have not figured out what is with the popularity of XML, it > truly is *horrible*... > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Also, I believe witty website is developed using witty. If so, I would > like > > to bring to notice that the keyboard inputs won't work on scrolling the > page > > up and down. Also, in some of the samples in witty 2.2.4, he modal dialog > > popups were not draggable when clicked on title bar. I suppose this is > > something that is being worked upon... > > Yes, the Wt website is written in Wt and is included in the examples. > I am not sure what problem you are seeing. I just opened the Wt > website in Firefox 3.5, Google Chrome 4dev, and Internet Explorer 6 > (*hack*cough*), and the up/down arrow keys worked in them all right > off the bat. What browser were you using and can you give steps to > duplicate your problem? > And I do not think all are *all* draggable off the bat, not sure, do > not use them, but I do notice the models are a bit odd, I actually use > jQuery's boxes instead, they tend to be a lot more reliable. Hmm, > perhaps I should add jQuery's functionality into Wt in a patch, is > anyone interested, is it worth me doing it? > > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 10:03 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Thanks and Best Regards, > > Bhushan > > > > > > > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2009 at 9:33 AM, OvermindDL1 <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> > >> I am just a user, not a developer of Wt, so take what I say with a > >> grain of salt, but my experiences might be useful. Based on what you > >> said about know C++ very well I will assume that with my responses as > >> I have been programming in C++ for over 15 years now. > >> > >> Now, if you are curious, my initial thoughts about WT: > >> I know it was built to emulate QT. > >> I know that from what little of QT I have seen, I hate QT's design > >> (not the layout, the design, I *HATE* their SLOTS design and a few > >> other things, thankfully WT does that better). > >> I started messing with WT, to be honest, it was bliss, after dealing > >> with PHP and Python and Java and such to make web pages, I was finally > >> able to do it in the language I love with an ease of use I had not > >> seen elsewhere before. C/C++ can do it *all*, unlike the other > >> languages. > >> > >> Now on to your questions. > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > Hi all witty users. I am new to witty and have not looked into the > >> > workings > >> > in detail. I intend to work on a website for my own purposes and I > need > >> > to > >> > know if witty is the right tool. I see a lot of examples that witty > >> > offers. > >> > - Cross platform & cross (multi) browser (even plain HTML compliant > >> > browsers) > >> > - Makes use of widgets concept > >> > - Renders leading web technologies code such as javascript, AJAX, etc. > >> > under > >> > the C++ engine. > >> > - Is more performant owing to its server side coding in C++ > >> > - Modal message boxes that are more intuitive > >> > ...and more. > >> > If I decide to develop a website using witty and I would try it at > some > >> > point sooner, my question is if I can safely use witty without any > >> > performance problems? I mean let us say all the commercial web > >> > technologies, > >> > languages and plugins like .NET, J2EE, Php, Perl, etc. are tried and > >> > tested > >> > for performance delivery and they require more resources owing to > their > >> > managed environment and lesser control over the garbage collector of > the > >> > managed memory on the heap. However, most of the people are more > >> > comcerned > >> > about the database access, security, caching, rich UI, etc. and these > >> > things > >> > >> First of all, every single one of those languages you listed are > >> developed in C/C++, so every one of them will be slower then > >> equivalent C/C++ code regardless, they are all used due to their > >> ease-of-use (which I think is an absolute joke, I can develop > >> something faster, easier, and it will run a great deal faster then any > >> of those other languages above). But also yes, the renderer is > >> usually not the slow part in the system (if it was, would everyone be > >> using things like PHP and Python and such? Heck no!), it is the > >> things you interact with like databases. For note, Wt is very well > >> multi-threaded, so while you are off waiting for a database response > >> in one handler, your other handlers will still be spinning along all > >> nice and fast. > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > are provided in plentiful by these technologies. I also understand > that > >> > since witty is considerably new and is open source, expecting that > kind > >> > of > >> > support might be really dumb. But, since I want to start everything > with > >> > open technologies, I have a set of questions here... > >> > >> Well Wt may be 'new' compared to much of what you listed, but it has > >> been out for a while now and is in use by many sites (I found out > >> about Wt when I ran across it on a company's About page for what they > >> used for their server). > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > - Can you list a few key important things, that can be done using .NET > >> > or > >> > J2EE but not using witty? > >> > >> Impossible. Since both J2EE and .NET are developed in C, and C++ is a > >> super-set of C, that inherently means that C++ can do everything they > >> can, and still more (try seeing how easy server-push is in those > >> compared to Wt for example). > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > - How good does C++ interact with javascript? As you said Wt uses > >> > C++ wrappers for Javascript, does it not put an extra layer over the > >> > javascript and create a performance issue while other technologies use > >> > java > >> > script as is? Or is the overhead negligible? > >> > >> The Wt devs came up with a rather excellent solution, and once you go > >> through it you will see. You still can use Javascript as is, but it > >> is *very* easy to register a javascript function that can do things on > >> the C++ side, and vice-versa. Their design is quite ingenious, it can > >> quite literally do it all and do it all very fast (faster then > >> everything else you listed). > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > - What is the best database library to work with witty? Is there any > >> > specific UI support for database interaction? > >> > >> C++ can of course use any database in existence, so use what you want > >> (I use SQLite personally, but for a bigger site you would no doubt > >> want something bigger like PostgreSQL or MySQL). The Wt devs have > >> been making their own DB abstraction layer which will be released > >> soon; I have not taken a look at it, but if it is anything like their > >> previous work then it will be quite simple and easy to use. > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > - Problem with me is, I have hardly used C++ for web programming like > >> > this, > >> > just some n/w, socket, ActiveX...but not widgets and definitely not > >> > witty. > >> > Don't have much understanding, but I know it will all come as I have > >> > worked > >> > with C++ a lot. Is there any support for XML or other web services? > Can > >> > I > >> > call them from witty? > >> > >> A couple questions here, first, you program in Wt just like you > >> program a desktop GUI, it is a pretty equal abstraction and makes > >> creating webpages very *fast* if you have done any real GUI work at > >> all. > >> And as stated, C++ can do it all, there are tons of XML things for > >> C++, and Wt comes with its own as well, use whatever you want. And > >> yes, as with all web services, C++ supports it all, and Wt even > >> supports many things natively like the wonderful server-push. > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > Some of the questions may appear out of sync and unrelated owing to my > >> > limited knowledge on web programming with C++. But, your comments will > >> > help > >> > refine my understanding. > >> > >> I have done web programming with C++, just CGI programs, not at all > >> pretty or easy to use, Wt was an absolute wonder when I came across > >> it. Using Wt, programming a web app is extremely similar to > >> programming a GUI app, and if you have done any of that, you will fall > >> right into Wt. I was making complex setups within a couple of hours > >> of first learning Wt, well worth it. > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Bhushan Inamdar <[email protected]> > >> wrote: > >> > So thanks in advance and as per the comments, the more the merrier.... > >> > >> No problem. As stated though, I am a Wt user, not a Wt dev, but these > >> are my experiences as someone who practically considers C++ his first > >> wife. :) > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > >> Return on Information: > >> Google Enterprise Search pays you back > >> Get the facts. > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev > >> _______________________________________________ > >> witty-interest mailing list > >> [email protected] > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/witty-interest > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Return on Information: > > Google Enterprise Search pays you back > > Get the facts. > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev > > > > _______________________________________________ > > witty-interest mailing list > > [email protected] > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/witty-interest > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Return on Information: > Google Enterprise Search pays you back > Get the facts. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/google-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > witty-interest mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/witty-interest >
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