Hal,

JWE/JWS supports multiple algorithms.   I haven't seen any argument to not have 
algorithm ajility.

There was a mention of what algorithms should be MTI.   I expect that 
discussion will continue.  (It is still gong on for xmlenc/xmldeig over at W3C)

We clearly need multiple algorithms, in my opinion.

John B.
On 2011-08-08, at 2:28 PM, Hal Lockhart wrote:

> There seems to be a position forming around the idea that woes/joes/jose 
> should specify (perhaps even design) a single algorithm (perhaps one for sign 
> and one for encrypt). I presume that means that if in future it was necessary 
> to use a different algorithm we would just start over and write a new spec.
> 
> I am not in favor of this, but I concede that it would simplify things in 
> this group a lot.
> 
> If there was only one algorithm, there is no need for any JSON metadata about 
> what the algorithm is being used.
> All we need is a way to indicate what is signed or encrypted and something 
> that says this is a JOES signature (or encryption) and perhaps some kind of 
> indication of what key was used.
> 
> If we were to specify only one algorithm, but provide metadata to indicate 
> the algorithm, others will use additional, unspecified algorithms, just as 
> people used 3-DES and AES in Kerberos while continuing to cite RFC 1510 which 
> only includes DES.
> 
> I won't bother to list the many (many, many) reasons why a single algorithm 
> is unlikely to fly, unless it turns out a lot of people are really committed 
> to that view. 
> 
> Instead, I suggest we say explicitly say that multiple algorithms will be 
> possible, but one will be MTI. It wouldn't hurt to also say we are not going 
> to design any new algorithms, but simply provide means to specify which 
> existing one is being used.
> 
> Hal
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Jeremy Laurenson [mailto:[email protected]]
>> Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2011 12:31 AM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: [woes] Proposed charter, post-Quebec edition
>> 
>> 
>> From a Javascript dev perspective, specifying an algorithm 
>> will make it a hell of of lot easier to implement, instead of 
>> having to potentially account for multiples.
>> 
>> Lets use the example of a web app that aggregates social 
>> media data - just for giggles - and uses WOES to secure the 
>> communications to well-defined interfaces
>> 
>> If multiple vendors' websites implement WOES/JOES/JOSE with 
>> different algorithms, it becomes more complex vs a single, 
>> consistent one.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Aug 5, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Sean Turner wrote:
>> 
>>> So I'll bite on this ;)
>>> 
>>> I think we can write the spec to require a particular 
>> algorithm choice, but it might make more sense to define the 
>> options and then allow the environment in which the solution 
>> will be used to specify it's requirements.  But, I believe 
>> that is a discussion we'll have while writing the spec.
>>> 
>>> spt
>>> 
>>> On 8/4/11 9:29 AM, John Bradley wrote:
>>>> HMAC is requirement for adoption in the JWS use cases.
>>>> 
>>>> If we want to describe it as something other than a 
>> "Qualified Digital
>>>> Signature", that is fine as long as it is MTI:)
>>>> 
>>>> John B.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 2011-08-04, at 9:12 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Sean Turner <[email protected]
>>>>> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>   On 8/2/11 7:13 PM, Paul Hoffman wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>       Here is a proposal for the charter based on the 
>> discussion in
>>>>>       the BoF last week and later discussion with Sean Turner.
>>>>>       Comments, praise, scorn, etc., are welcome.
>>>>> 
>>>>>       --Paul and Richard
>>>>> 
>>>>>       Javascript Object Signing and Encrypting (jose)
>>>>>       ==============================__=================
>>>>> 
>>>>>       Background
>>>>>       ----------
>>>>> 
>>>>>       Javascript Object Notation (JSON) is a text format for the
>>>>>       serialization of structured data described in RFC 4627. The
>>>>>       JSON format is often used for serializing and transmitting
>>>>>       structured data over a network connection. With 
>> the increased
>>>>>       usage of JSON in protocols in the IETF and 
>> elsewhere, there is
>>>>>       now a desire to offer security services such as 
>> encryption and
>>>>>       digital signatures for data that is being carried 
>> in JSON format.
>>>>> 
>>>>>       Different proposals for providing such security 
>> services have
>>>>>       already been defined and implemented. This Working Group's
>>>>>       task is to standardize two security services, 
>> encrypting and
>>>>>       digitally signing, in order to increase interoperability of
>>>>>       security features between protocols that use JSON. 
>> The Working
>>>>>       Group will base its work on well-known message security
>>>>>       primitives (e.g., CMS), and will solicit input 
>> from the rest
>>>>>       of the IETF Security Area to be sure that the security
>>>>>       functionality in the JSON format is correct.
>>>>> 
>>>>>       This group is chartered to work on four documents:
>>>>> 
>>>>>       1) A Standards Track document specifying how to apply a
>>>>>       JSON-structured digital signature to data, 
>> including (but not
>>>>>       limited to) JSON data structures. "Digital signature" is
>>>>>       defined as a hash operation followed by a 
>> signature operation
>>>>>       using asymmetric keys.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>   I just want to make sure that we agree now that a digital
>>>>>   signature is a hash followed by a signature algorithm 
>> (e.g., RSA
>>>>>   with SHA-256). I've seen a couple of drafts that tried 
>> to say an
>>>>>   HMAC (e.g., HMAC-SHA256) was a digital signature; one 
>> called it a
>>>>>   symmetric key based digital signature algorithm (note 
>> this phrase
>>>>>   didn't get through the IESG).
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> An HMAC is not a digital signature, but the spec 
>> definitely needs to
>>>>> be able to cover MAC based authentication.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I know that public key is getting easier as far as 
>> computation goes.
>>>>> But for many applications the non-repudiation you get in digital
>>>>> signatures is actually undesirable.
>>>>> 
>>>>> There are interesting tricks you can do with symmetric 
>> crypto that are
>>>>> much harder to do in public key and end up with some 
>> scheme that only
>>>>> 50 academics in the world can follow and has a security proof that
>>>>> rest on rather esoteric assumptions.
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Website: http://hallambaker.com/
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> woes mailing list
>>>>> [email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/woes
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> woes mailing list
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>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/woes
>> 
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