No, a form is not a list of form controls any more than a chapter of a book is a list of paragraphs or a paragraph is a list of words. A collection of form controls is a fieldset. Definition lists are the new tables. People are just falling over themselves trying to abuse them in all kinds of inappropriate ways. To paraphrase the previous message, a definition list is for lists of definitions, and if you're using it to style your page you need to take a strong look at what you're doing. Steve
_____ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jamie Collins Sent: 22 May 2007 18:10 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout A table is for Tabular Date, a quote from the W3C Documentation: "Tables should not be used purely as a means to layout document content as this may present problems when rendering to non-visual media. Additionally, when used with graphics, these tables may force users to scroll horizontally to view a table designed on a system with a larger display. To minimize these problems, authors should use style sheets to control layout rather than tables." There is a big debate around a DL, but in a sense a list of form inputs is infact just that, A LIST. So while you may be saying its wrong its more semantic then using a table. People need to understand that they cannot just return to tables because they dont know how to layout there forms or any other elements for that matter. A table is for tabular data, and if your using it to style your page you need to take a strong look at what your doing. Tables for layout, regardless of what your laying out is wrong. On 5/22/07, Steve Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't see how using a table is any worse than using a definition list. Both are wrong. Any spurious argument you use to justify a definition list can equally apply to a table. CSS can usually achieve anything you want visually. Steve _____ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jamie Collins Sent: 22 May 2007 08:46 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] dl v table for form layout Kane, exactly what i was going to say. And in no way, and i mean by no way should you use tables for forms, unless its ment for tabular date, the only way i can ever see this being possible is if you were to create a spreadsheet that allows the user to input details. Thats the only real use i can see for putting a form in a table. Go with the DL method or the DIV method. On 5/22/07, Kane Tapping <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: My view: 1. Use HTML for content 2. Use CSS for presentation 3. Use tables only for tabular data WCAG 1.0 has the following guidelines applicable to this question. 3.3 Use style sheets to control layout and presentation. 5.1 For data tables, identify row and column headers. 5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when linearized. Otherwise, if the table does not make sense, provide an alternative equivalent (which may be a linearized version). 5.4 If a table is used for layout, do not use any structural markup for the purpose of visual formatting. 5.5 Provide summaries for tables. 10.2 Until user agents support explicit associations between labels and form controls, for all form controls with implicitly associated labels, ensure that the label is properly positioned. 10.3 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render side-by-side text correctly, provide a linear text alternative (on the current page or some other) for all tables that lay out text in parallel, word-wrapped columns. 10.4 Until user agents handle empty controls correctly, include default, place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas. 12.4 Associate labels explicitly with their controls. - Kane "Benedict Wyss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 22/05/2007 02:15 PM Please respond to wsg@webstandardsgroup.org To wsg@webstandardsgroup.org cc Subject [WSG] dl v table for form layout Hi all, I am having a discussion with colleagues here at work (won't mention our site as it stinks) about the best way forward for form layouts. I have one person saying he will continue to use tables till otherwise informed. I have another who uses none of the above, which you can imaging is not that good to look at with everything butting up against each other. His other suggestion was to add  's to move things about......... I like to use the definition list with Labels. Now I know the dl I am using is not being used exactly as it was originally used (good point), but I say it is 100 times better than tables. Can I get a WSG response on the best format to layout a form. Cheers, Ben ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm <http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm <http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ******************************************************************* ******************************************************************* List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *******************************************************************
