Hi Ben and others,
Here is my own bit of pedanticness...
--
Lucien Stals
Multimedia/Web Developer
Academic Development and Support
Swinburne University of Technology
PO Box 218 Hawthorn, 3122, Australia
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
telephone: +61 3 9214 4474
office: AD223
>>> On 6/06/2007 at 11:27 am, "Ben Buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Sure a DIV
>> would work. But a DIV is void of semantic. It's the refuge of the
>> unimaginative who want to wrap everything in excess tags with no
>> semantic meaning just to hang CSS off. To me, a fieldset is
obviously
>> the correct semantic here.
>
> Well it has already been pointed out that DIV does have semantic
> significance - it adds structure by containing parts of the page.
It's
> just used so heavily that we tend to forget it has a real, live
> meaning :) The only major difference between DIV and FIELDSET the
way
> you propose is that FIELDSET renders a box by default.
A DIV (and a SPAN for that matter) are purely structural, not semantic.
The only difference between a div and a span is that one is a block
level element, and the other is an inline element. Apart from that, they
have the same semantic meaning, which is none at all.
The specs say:
"The DIV and SPAN elements, in conjunction with the id and class
attributes, offer a generic mechanism for adding structure to documents.
These elements define content to be inline (SPAN) or block-level (DIV)
but impose no other presentational idioms on the content. Thus, authors
may use these elements in conjunction with style sheets, the lang
attribute, etc., to tailor HTML to their own needs and tastes."
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#h-7.5.4
And I quote that in it's entirety in case anyone else decides to
suggest I'm trying to twist things to mean anything other than what they
mean.
The issue here is about the meaning of the word "semantic". Semantics
refer to the *meaning* attached to something. What is the meaning of a
div? It's *use* is structural, but it's *meaning* is ... well, it
doesn't have a meaning. Only by attaching meaning via a class or id does
a div or span acquire meaning.
If I code <div>some text here</div>, then I have an anonymous,
meaningless block of text. If I changed the div to be a p, then it
suddenly acquires a bit more meaning. It's a paragraph. A dictionary can
explain what a paragraph means.
If I add a class such that the code becomes <div class="vcard>some text
here</div>, then I have also given it meaning. In this case, it means I
have a microformat vcard entry and the information contained inside will
be treated in a special (meaningful) way.
It seems to me that many people here have different ideas about what
semantic means. It would be helpful it we shared a common understanding
in our conversations. I welcome, and invite, a *polite and professional*
debate about the use of the term "semantic" as it relates to our work on
the web.
The "use" of something, and its "meaning" are not necessarily the
same.
To come back to the original discussion about fieldsets, everyone has
made it very clear what the "correct" way to use them is, and I don't
disagree with them. I'm not interested in their correct (as defined by
the specifications) use. As far as I'm concerned, the "use" of a
fieldset is to group form controls and labels. But the "meaning" is, as
the w3schools site says, to group related content.
This bings me to Bens next excellent remarks...
> A key point that doesn't seem to have come up is that in the real
> world screen readers make use of fieldsets in a way which assumes
> they're in a form. The legend can be vocalised together with labels
to
> provide full context.
>
> Unfortunately I don't have a screen reader handy to test what it
does
> with a fieldset that's not in a form; but I would be concerned that
it
> could get really confusing for form elements to crop up in the
middle
> of general content.
>
> I won't speculate any further, but if anyone has a screen reader
> handy, perhaps they could shed some light on this?
>
I too would love to see the results of this experiment.
Any takers?
I suspect that the following code...
<fieldset><legend>staff details</legend>
<dl>
<dt>email</dt><dd>[EMAIL PROTECTED]</dd>
<dt>phone</dt><dd>12345678</dd>
</dl>
</fieldset>
Is perfectly valid, semantic markup which a screen reader would render
just fine.
But can I point out, Ben, that at no time did anyone ever suggest
placing form elements in the middle of general content. I'm not sure
where you got that one from.
Regards,
Lucien.
PS: I'm planning on attending tomorrow nights WSG meeting in Melbourne.
Can anyone advise me if I should bring a flame proof suit and a fire
extinguisher with me?
Swinburne University of Technology
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