On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Sebastian Karcher <[email protected]> wrote: >> Because it's possible the cost is too high, and the benefit too low. >> I'm not saying that's the case, but it is the calculation. >> >> To bottomline it: can we add these in such a way that we'll see >> multiple implementations? >> >> To me, that should be the question for any future changes really. > I don't know about multiple implementations, though I'd suppose since > Frank writes citeproc and Mendeley uses citeproc, at least two > implementations are pretty likely.
Those don't count: citeproc-js is one. Mendeley and Zotero are simply consumers. Sylvester's is another, as is Andrea's, as is the one used in Papers. The "multiple implementations" criterion is a very common measure for standards, because it insures the specification is clear and reasonable (otherwise, there's not much reason to have a spec to begin with). > But more generally about cost-benefit: > I don't think the benefit of providing support for proper legal > citations can be overstated: > 1. It's a distinguishing feature - no other product can really do it > (which is why Frank got involved in it) > 2. Legal citations are a _huge_ market - in the US alone, 45k people > graduate law school every year and they're expected to use correct > bluebook citations and in many other countries law is the largest or > one of the largest academic fields. > 3. Many other social sciences rely on correct law citations - e.g. in > political science, economics, and sociology, the requirement of most > citation styles is to cite legal citations according to bluebook or a > comparable guide. > > The point being - if we're actually talking cost benefits, the > benefits of this are so huge that almost any costs in terms of > complicating csl are justified. Tell that to the implementors (beyond Frank). If they find the argument compelling and are willing to put in the resources (time/cash) to seek out these opportunities, then that makes your case. If they won't, then we have a problem. > As for the original question - I'd personal be happy to help support > an MLZ branch of the citationstyles repository and since I don't think > most users ever see what's on github I don't really see much of a > downside. I of course disagree. MLZ is a fork, and so are its styles. I don't like the idea of incorporating those styles, particularly if we're going to be supporting these features in the not-too-distant future (if we don't, then that's another matter, and bears some thought). In any case, I suggest we first get some agreement on the bigger and more fundamental point before we discuss further what to do in the short run with the MLZ styles. The same issue applies to any other significant changes we want to make to the spec, and therefore the styles. Charles, Sylvester, Andrea (who is a legal scholar as well, but as such, has other responsibilities); what do you think? Bruce PS - I'll be on vacation soon; feel free to talk among yourselves :-) > Sebastian > > >> >>>> If yes, we should cover them in CSL, in as non-disruptive a way as >>>> possible, so that there's no need for a separate repo, or even branch >>>> (aside from maybe a change in version number). >>> >>> >>> That's obviously desirable, but for the near-term (say at least a year) >>> there really isn't a way around maintaining a fork of CSL for MLZ. Frank's >>> MLZ styles depend on a fair number of modification to CSL proper (see >>> https://github.com/rmzelle/schema/blob/master/csl-mlz.rnc for the complete >>> modification schema, as well as >>> http://gsl-nagoya-u.net/http/pub/citeproc-js-csl.html ). Adding support for >>> all those features in CSL will take quite a bit of time (the main reason >>> Frank forked CSL in the first place), and they require some progress on >>> several long-standing issues such as improving identifier support. >> >> I understand that. But, per your point below, I don't think we should >> be hosting that fork. >> >> Bruce >> >>> As to Frank's question of whether MLZ styles can be added to the >>> citation-style-language styles repo, I would prefer not to for the time >>> being. I'd be happy to work with him to bring as many MLZ-CSL features to >>> CSL proper once we get 1.0.1 out of the door, though. >>> >>> Rintze >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 6:40 AM, fbennett <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> > >>>> > If there are to be release branches, I wonder if it might be possible at >>>> > some >>>> > point to contemplate hosting variants such as styles based on the MLZ >>>> > extended schema. That's not a loaded question; it's a matter for the CSL >>>> > development team, and not something I will push if it's felt to be out >>>> > of >>>> > order. On the plus side, it would help strengthen the perception of a >>>> > connection between the two projects. On the minus side, I suppose there >>>> > might be concern over potential confusion, and increased complexity in >>>> > the >>>> > archive. >>>> > >>>> > In any case, I'll throw the idea out there to see what people think. >>>> > >>>> > Frank >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Live Security Virtual Conference >>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and >>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions >>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware >>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> xbiblio-devel mailing list >>> [email protected] >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Live Security Virtual Conference >> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and >> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions >> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware >> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ >> _______________________________________________ >> xbiblio-devel mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel > > > > -- > ------ > Sebastian Karcher > Ph.D. Candidate > Department of Political Science > Northwestern University > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Live Security Virtual Conference > Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and > threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions > will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware > threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ > _______________________________________________ > xbiblio-devel mailing list > [email protected] > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Live Security Virtual Conference Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/ _______________________________________________ xbiblio-devel mailing list [email protected] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
