The general idea that seems to have emerged from various discussion here and on
the Zotero forums that styles would need to specify two different citation
formats. For author-date styles, these would generally take the forms: (Author,
Date) and Author (Date). For numeric and note styles, these would be: [1] and
Author [1].
Supporting two formats like this in CSL would be excellent, as it would
dramatically improve the ability of users to change styles quickly (at the
moment, changing rules for “and” vs “&”, formatting rules for “et al.”, etc.
must be manually adjusted for “narrative citations”). As Sebastian mentions,
this is probably the single most requested feature/complaint from Zotero users.
On Oct 6, 2017, 17:15 +0200, xbiblio-devel-requ...@lists.sourceforge.net, wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Different and= for narrative and parenthetical citations?
> (Bruce D'Arcus)
> 2. Re: Different and= for narrative and parenthetical citations?
> (Sebastian Karcher)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2017 15:05:46 +0000
> From: "Bruce D'Arcus" <bdar...@gmail.com
> To: development discussion for xbiblio
> <xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [xbiblio-devel] Different and= for narrative and
> parenthetical citations?
> Message-ID:
> <caf-fpgobcv9v7exveu2ba5gi6yvun_lkrt12enx+eiticns...@mail.gmail.com
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I added the broader issue, and linked the two, here:
>
> https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/141
>
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 10:57 AM Bruce D'Arcus <bdar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > To be clear, I'm not sure we won't fix. It's just a possibility.
> >
> > This issue is tied into a somewhat complex issue: whether we support the
> > feature ("narrative citations"), it needs to maintain a current original
> > design goal, which is that an author can switch between note and other
> > style types without editing their text.
> >
> > I couldn't figure out how to reconcile those in the past, but would be
> > happy if someone did.
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 10:46 AM Malte Roedl <
> > malte.ro...@postgrad.mbs.ac.uk> wrote:
> >
> > > Thanks for your quick reply, Bruce.
> > >
> > > I have created a github issue, but I could unfortunately not tag it as
> > > "wontfix" myself.
> > >
> > > https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/140
> > >
> > > In my case, I will probably use latex (biblatex-apa) for this, as the
> > > journal is very picky about their citations.
> > >
> > > In case anyone is interested, another option to solve this is to use
> > > and="symbol" and use a regex for post-processing.
> > > This one works:
> > > "([&])(?=\s+(?:[\w-]+ ){1,3}[(])" -> "and"
> > > (unless there are punctuation characters in between the ampersand and
> > > the year, e.g. for first names, or there is random ampersands followed
> > > by brackets in the text)
> > >
> > > On Fri, 2017-10-06 at 10:31 +0000, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
> > > > CSL has no concept of a "narrative citation," which would explain why
> > > > there's no way to distinguish formatting based on it.
> > > > There's been discussions about it, but am not remembering where we
> > > > ended up.
> > > > If we don't already have it, we should have a general issue ticket on
> > > > GitHub for the broader feature, and include a note about this
> > > > particular detail there.
> > > > Even if we label it "won't fix," at least we have the documentation
> > > > in one place.
> > > >
> > > > On Fri, Oct 6, 2017, 5:44 AM Malte Roedl <malte.ro...@postgrad.mbs.ac
> > > > .uk> wrote:
> > > > > Hello everyone,
> > > > >
> > > > > according to the APA style guidelines, which have many adoptions in
> > > > > various CSL-styles, it is mandatory to have 'and' connecting
> > > > > authors in
> > > > > narrative, and '&' connecting authors in parenthetical
> > > > > citations[1].
> > > > >
> > > > > None of the styles I tried were accommodating for this rule.
> > > > >
> > > > > So then I've tried to build a if-else-control structure to identify
> > > > > whether it is a narrative or a parenthetical citation, but it seems
> > > > > that the processor would do that automatically by using "prefix"
> > > > > and
> > > > > "suffix"?
> > > > > Is there any way to identify in the csl-file what type of citation
> > > > > is
> > > > > calling the evaluation?
> > > > > Or even better, is there already an existing style that
> > > > > accommodates
> > > > > for my issue (I could not find one, but that may be because of very
> > > > > vague and ubiquitous search terms).
> > > > >
> > > > > Many thanks!
> > > > > Malte
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [1] e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APA_style#In-text_citations
> > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2017 10:51:20 -0400
> From: Sebastian Karcher <karc...@u.northwestern.edu
> To: development discussion for xbiblio
> <xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [xbiblio-devel] Different and= for narrative and
> parenthetical citations?
> Message-ID:
> <CAOSYSD6L17TUAHU6i2X1Mtmx_QDWc4eBWt07sD8s=w0Zz=5...@mail.gmail.com
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> what reference manager are you using? Pandoc? E.g. in Zotero that whole
> idea doesn't exist. You'd have to write out the narrative reference in the
> text. Which has its own downsides, e.g. won't adapt to et al. rules if the
> citation moves.
>
> I do think we'll need to handle this. It's one of the most frequent
> complaints on Zotero and as Malte notes, it cause reference managers that
> try to implement "narrative" citations to render incorrect citations.
>
> Since it's a relative big change, I'd not expect this to happen fast,
> though.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 6, 2017 at 10:46 AM, Malte Roedl <malte.ro...@postgrad.mbs.ac.uk
> > wrote:
>
> > Thanks for your quick reply, Bruce.
> >
> > I have created a github issue, but I could unfortunately not tag it as
> > "wontfix" myself.
> >
> > https://github.com/citation-style-language/schema/issues/140
> >
> > In my case, I will probably use latex (biblatex-apa) for this, as the
> > journal is very picky about their citations.
> >
> > In case anyone is interested, another option to solve this is to use
> > and="symbol" and use a regex for post-processing.
> > This one works:
> > "([&])(?=\s+(?:[\w-]+ ){1,3}[(])" -> "and"
> > (unless there are punctuation characters in between the ampersand and
> > the year, e.g. for first names, or there is random ampersands followed
> > by brackets in the text)
> >
> > On Fri, 2017-10-06 at 10:31 +0000, Bruce D'Arcus wrote:
> > > CSL has no concept of a "narrative citation," which would explain why
> > > there's no way to distinguish formatting based on it.
> > > There's been discussions about it, but am not remembering where we
> > > ended up.
> > > If we don't already have it, we should have a general issue ticket on
> > > GitHub for the broader feature, and include a note about this
> > > particular detail there.
> > > Even if we label it "won't fix," at least we have the documentation
> > > in one place.
> > >
> > > On Fri, Oct 6, 2017, 5:44 AM Malte Roedl <malte.ro...@postgrad.mbs.ac
> > > .uk> wrote:
> > > > Hello everyone,
> > > >
> > > > according to the APA style guidelines, which have many adoptions in
> > > > various CSL-styles, it is mandatory to have 'and' connecting
> > > > authors in
> > > > narrative, and '&' connecting authors in parenthetical
> > > > citations[1].
> > > >
> > > > None of the styles I tried were accommodating for this rule.
> > > >
> > > > So then I've tried to build a if-else-control structure to identify
> > > > whether it is a narrative or a parenthetical citation, but it seems
> > > > that the processor would do that automatically by using "prefix"
> > > > and
> > > > "suffix"?
> > > > Is there any way to identify in the csl-file what type of citation
> > > > is
> > > > calling the evaluation?
> > > > Or even better, is there already an existing style that
> > > > accommodates
> > > > for my issue (I could not find one, but that may be because of very
> > > > vague and ubiquitous search terms).
> > > >
> > > > Many thanks!
> > > > Malte
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [1] e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APA_style#In-text_citations
> > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > -------------
> > > > Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> > > > engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > xbiblio-devel mailing list
> > > > xbiblio-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/xbiblio-devel
> > >
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>
>
>
> --
> Sebastian Karcher, PhD
> www.sebastiankarcher.com
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