Jeffrey, et al.
See http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2610043,00.html .
The actual XML vs EDI scorecard is given in a sidebar at
http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2611942,00.html .
If you think the article is inaccurate or unfair, write the editor, who is
paid big bucks (well, for the publishing world anyway) to hear such things.
Alan Kotok
Director, Education and Information Resources
Data Interchange Standards Association
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+1 703-518-4174
** DISA's E-Business and Internet Conference, 7-9 March 2001, in San Francisco.
http://www.disa.org/conference/annual_conf/index.htm **
At 04:54 PM 8/23/00 -0400, Wall, Jeffrey D. wrote:
>Can someone please forward me either the link or name and date of this
>article that everyone is referencing. I am an EDI Engineer and I stratle
>both sides of this fence, the traditional EDI world (Translators-X12,
>edifact etc.) as well as utilizing XML and XSLT to process transactions
>and I would very much like to take a good long look at this article. This
>is a wonderful group and I as well as many others I am sure am gaining
>more insight with every members comments. Thank You so much and good luck.
>Jeff Wall
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Anthony Beecher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 4:10 PM
>To: xmledi-group
>Cc: rachelf
>Subject: RE: Re[2]: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
>
>
>
>
>
>It seems as though many of you disagree with the assertions in the article
>(as did I). I think the article is a disgrace.
>I run a high volume translator and one of my main concerns is speed. Most
>of the new tools have also jumped on the java bandwagon, which I think is
>a critical mistake, if volume is a concern. How is a java based system
>that does multiple transforms (i.e. EDI to XML to whatever) going to
>compete with my system running native machine code and less transforms
>(EDI to DB)?
>How are Webmethods, Ariba, and Commerce One so highly touted when their
>foundation is a house of cards?
>Is it simply enough to "know better" when the tides of money and hype are
>going against you?
>
>To put it another way, are any Executives going to take seriously the
>information presented in the article?
>Can anyone recall any other historical "killer apps" that were touted
>highly but fell by the wayside?
>Anthony
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Hockemeyer, Gene
>[<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 11:43 AM
>To: 'Anthony Beecher'; xmledi-group
>Cc: rachelf
>Subject: RE: Re[2]: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
>
>Consider the following statements made in eWeek newspaper from Ziff Davis
>Aug 7, 2000:
>"by next year, 70 percent of all B2B transactions executed on the Web will
>be done using XML, Gartner Group Inc. predicts"
>please note .. it says .. web . second .. it does not relate this to the
>total number of B2B transactions from all sources.
>EDI vs. XML
>EDI
>1. Optimized for compressed messages
>True
>
>2. Requires dedicated EDI server costing $10,000 to $100,000
>False
>
>
>3. Uses value-added network
>False
>
>
>4. EDI message format can take many months to master
>False
>
>
>5. Requires C++ programmers
>False
>
>
>6. Machine Readable
>XML
>1. Optimized for easy display and programming
>Not necessarily true
>2. Requires Web server costing up to $5,000
>False
>3. Uses existing internet connection
>IF one exists
>
>
>4. XML message format can be learned in hours
>False .. from what source
>
>
>5. Requires JavaScript, Visual Basic, Python or perl script writers
>True
>
>
>6. Human and machine readable
>Only when translated
>
>
>"My suggestion is to limit investments in EDI and explore ways to use XML.
>EDI will probably be around for the next 10 years though, " [Gartner's] Knox
>said.
>Does this guy do anything but write !~?? Ziff-Davis is only a publisher ..
>not necessarily an expert on anything
>
>
>
>I guess this proves it conclusively :) - EDI is dying.
>What in the above .. gives you that impression ......?? if anything.??
>
>
>
>EPH ..
><>----------------------------------<>
>Anthony
>-----Original Message-----
>From: CHRIS KELLY [
><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ]
>Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 10:25 AM
>To: xmledi-group-return; roy; xmledi-group
>Cc: rachelf
>Subject: Re[2]: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
>
> I see that my instincts about EDI versus EDI/XML or just XML are pretty
>
> close to the target....I am just starting to look at XML and it seems
> cumbersome, but not difficult. I believe that W3C is in the process of
> developing 'schemas' to mirror X12 standards, that is for related
>elements
> in a segment, but that seems a ways off.
> So of the two 'camps' or schools of thought, I believe that EDI will
>not be
> replaced by XML, but useful in implementing trading partners more
>quickly
> if they don't have/need EDI in the background.
> Thanks for your note...
> Chris
>______________________________ Reply Separator
>_________________________________
>Subject: RE: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
>Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] at INTERNET
>Date: 8/22/00 10:37 PM
>List-
>I've been a lurker on this list for some time and I
>would like to make a comment about the exitement
>regarding XML and its ability to "replace" EDI.
>Roy makes a good point of dividing the e-commerce
>connection into three areas, Medium, Syntax, and
>Semantics, so I will use these terms.
>The Internet *can* replace the Medium, which is now the
>expensive VAN's (Value-Added Networks). For that
>matter, people can e-mail or FTP EDI documents. So
>long as the receiver is sophisticated enough to receive
>it, the Medium can change at any time, regardless of
>whether EDI is used or not. In many cases two parters
>with massive EDI exchanges elect to use an alternate
>method because the convenience of the VAN cannot offset
>its significant dollar costs.
>Regarding the Syntax and Semantics, XML *can* replace
>EDI's current syntax and semantics. But, to what
>discernable benefit?
>An XML Semantics *can* be a viable replacement if not
>an improvment upon EDI. XML can use document format
>descriptions that are more easily read by a human, so
>that is one benefit.
>However, the problems which plague EDI will plague its
>successor, no matter what the form.
>One of the biggest problems in setting up EDI systems
>is what Roy refers to as the "Semantics". Namely,
>with EDI every company in effect uses its own format
>and its own unique business rules. Take for instance
>an EDI 850 Purchase Order. Given ten companies, there
>will most likely be ten different variations. An
>interface written to accept one EDI 850 will not be
>able to accept another.
>EDI uses the ANSI X12 Standard. However, this
>standard could be compared to the standard of the
>English language. The words and vocabulary are
>defined, yes, but tell ten people to write a letter
>and each will format and phrase it differently. And
>they do.
>The current EDI exchange has an advantage that the
>"Syntax" is already defined. XML must now go through
>this growing phase, and in the end it will probably
>resemble the ANSI X12 standard with better
>descriptions.
>The only way the inherent e-commerce problem can be
>solved would be if companies somehow agree to use a
>common format for their documents. This does not seem
>practical, however, no matter how attractive the
>concept.
>EDI or any replacement in effect connects two
>businesses with unlike ERP's and unlike business
>rules. Each ERP will have its own special tehcnical
>requirements, and business plan has special needs
>which other business may not use or anticipate. These
>things contribute to giving EDI a bad reputation, but
>its replacement will inherit the same.
>I would encourage any and all responses to this post.
>Sincerely,
>Jim Szyszko
>EDI Contractor
>--- Roy Roebuck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Good comments Rachel. I'd again bring up the point
> > I've made earlier in the
> > list about the semantics, syntax, and medium of
> > human and machine
> > interchange.
> >
> > "Electronic data interchange" involves an
> > "electronic/electrical" medium of
> > exchange, the syntax (structural rules) of exchange,
> > and the semantics
> > (meaning) of exchange. I have also previously
> > labeled these medium, syntax,
> > and semantics terms as information Carriers,
> > Containers, and Content,
> > respectively.
> >
> > Carriers/Medium would be electronic Value Added
> > Networks (VAN), private
> > networks (LAN/WAN, intranet, extranet), public
> > Networks (Internet or Public
> > Telephone - PT), etc., along with the physical
> > carriers such as
> > shipping/transportation companies, USPS, UPS, Fedex,
> > etc.
> >
> > Containers/Syntax would be some form of data
> > packaging/storage and
> > behavior/methods using SGML, XML, SQL, SMTP, HTTP,
> > S/MIME, EDI Maps, etc.
> >
> > Content/Semantics would be the data itself, in a
> > meaningful, defined, and
> > shared context (X12, EDIFACT, and other vocabularies
> > and messages)
> > documented and baselined in a common reference such
> > as a dictionary.
> >
> > This data interchange would them be applied for
> > purposes of integration and
> > communication within a "value lattice" (i.e., a
> > multilinked value-chain -
> >
><http://one-world-is.com/rer/owis/dem/slides/img006.gif>http://one-world-is.com/rer/owis/dem/slides/img006.gif
>
>
><http://one-world-is.com/rer/owis/dem/slides/img006.gif> )
> > (e.g., workflow,
> > application integration, enterprise application
> > integration, B2B for direct
> > relationships, ...B2B2B2B.... for
> > single-resource-thread relationships, and
> >
> > E...2B2B2B2B2...R
> > E...2B2B2B2B2...R
> > E...2B2B2B2B2...R
> > E...2B2B2B2B2...R
> >
> > forming a global lattice of direct and indirect
> > economic/ecological and
> > other relationships flowing from activities to
> > Extract materiel from the
> > natural enviroment and information from virtual
> > environments to activities
> > to Recycle materiel and information back into the
> > respective natural or
> > virtual environments -
> >
><http://one-world-is.com/rer/owis/dem/slides/img092.gif>http://one-world-is.com/rer/owis/dem/slides/img092.gif
>
>
><http://one-world-is.com/rer/owis/dem/slides/img092.gif> .)
> >
> > The choice of Carriers and Containers will evolve
> > with technology (e.g.,
> > private nets vs VAN vs Internet) and understanding
> > of context (e.g., B2B,
> > E2B2B2B2R), while the Content/Semantics will always
> > involve humans seeking
> > and agreeing to communicate, collaborate,
> > coordinate, and share.
> >
> > Roy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Rachel Foerster [
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
><mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ]
> > Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 2:47 PM
> > To: 'XML/EDI Group'
> > Subject: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
> >
> >
> > 1. Will the Internet enhance or replace EDI? How and
> > why?
> >
> > A: One first must understand what EDI is....at its
> > basic definition, it's
> > electronic
> > data interchange. This means that companies exchange
> > data electronically so
> > that it can automatically be processed by an
> > automated, intelligent business
> > system.
> >
> > Second, one must then understand what is meant by
> > the question will the
> > Internet
> > replace.....etc.? Fundamentally, the Internet is a
> > huge global network of
> > computers
> > providing almost instantaneous connectivity. Thus,
> > it's actually the pipe or
> > conduit
> > that data/information/other objects can travel
> > through to get from one
> > computer
> > to another. I think that what is actually being
> > asked by this question is
> > will the World
> > Wide Web or the Web replace EDI.
> >
> > Of course, the answer is no.....the Internet and the
> > Web will only add more
> > capabilities
> > and flexibility for companies who wish to engage in
> > electronic business
> > information
> > exchanges.
> >
> > However, to many people, EDI is actually the current
> > standards or rules (the
> > ASC X12
> > Standards, for example) that are used to structure
> > data for electronic
> > exchange.
> > Hear, hear, Steve,
> >
> > Now, to pick up on your closing comment about XML
> > not being a silver bullet,
> > etc. I offer the following perspective.
> > This was information I provided to an editor of a
> > health care trade journal
> > since the health care supply chain is mightily
> > struggling to take the cost out.
> >
> > Rachel
> >
> > "Q1. Will the Internet enhance or replace EDI? How
> > and why?
> > A1. Today, we have a ?Tower of Babel? for electronic
> > data exchange,
> > proprietary flat file formats, proprietary
> > non-standard uses of the ASC X12
> > standards and inconsistent use of the ASC X12
> > standards. XML therefore is
> > being
> > touted as the killer of EDI. However, since XML has
> > not
> > yet matured to the level of X12, there is no
> > standard data dictionary, no
> > standard tags, and no use of XML. Thus, we are
> > actually back to the days
> > before we had X12 as a standard with individual
> > organizations doing their
> > own thing with XML. This actually does little to
> > accomplish data exchange
> > and systems interoperability, and in my opinion,
> > even thwarts this goal.
> > The issue is cost to manage and exchange
> > information. Ultimately all of the
> > cost within and throughout the supply chain gets
> > translated into higher
> > product costs.
> >
> > The real heartburn has been the decades of attempts
> > to easily, reliably and
> > cheaply exchange data automatically between
> > automated business systems
> > and/or humans without having to write/rewrite custom
> > interfaces. The
> > expectation
> > is that XML will become that universal computer
> > language of the Internet and
> > the Web that will enable and facilitate. It is this
> > that I think people are
> > thinking
> > of when they say the Internet will kill EDI.
> >
> > There is major global joint effort between UN/CEFACT
> > and OASIS with hundreds
> > of participants from all over the work (the ebXML
> > Initiative) working to
> > bring more standardization and consistency to using
> > XML in order to
> > accomplish the end goal.
> >
> > Q2. What's the misperception you've been hearing
> > about regarding EDI and the
> > Internet wihtin the healthcare industry?
> >
> > A2: One of the primary reasons why healthcare is
> > having such a difficult
> > time
> > with X12 is that there hasn?t been a real commitment
> > by individual
> >
>=== message truncated ===
>__________________________________________________
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