Wow - every month we get a whole new thread on the same topic.
Let me add an additional perspective.
Microsoft just released the beta version of Biztalk. If you've looked
at it, you know it is a transformation tool (aka translation software)
which supports XML, ANSI X12, and EDIFACT. I have been attending
Microsoft meetings for over a year concerning their release of Biztalk.
When I first attended a Biztalk meeting in the summer of '99, MS talked
about the problems of EDI and how XML would replace EDI. When I
attended another meeting in the spring of '00, they spoke about XML
complementing and supplementing EDI. I attended another Biztalk meeting
this summer and the MS representative was talking about XML and EDI
being joint parts of your company's strategy for B2B.
Microsoft is not alone in making their tools compatable to all three
formats. Saga Software's transformation/message flow system (Sagavista)
supports B2B interfaces with all three formats. Commerce One, Ariba,
Softshare are all major EC names who have products capable of XML and
EDI. The major EDI translation software companies have all added XML
modules. The term EDI may be replaced by B2B but the concepts,
standards, and best practices used by EDI will remain.
As a professional, you should embrace both XML and EDI to maximize the
value which you can provide to your employer.
Doug Fangmeier
Consulting Manager
Business To Business Solutions
Charter Solutions, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 12:34 PM
To: Paul Williams; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: xmledi-group; rachelf; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
Paul,
In my experience I find XML the easiest to learn. I have no experience
with
EDI other than in XML. But I have a working knowledge of SGML, Java and
C++
I think XML is just like learning HTML, or sort of. As with HTML you
can
always add bells and whistles: Java, Flash, etc.
I can't think of anything as easy to learn as XML. Now if you really
want
to be a super XML developer any other programming skills can only help.
If
you are already working with an EDI-XML program, the learning curve
should
be minimal.
I do believe that there is a significant group that is against the
EDI-XML
wave. I have been in similar camps when the technology I was used to
was
replaced. I see no stopping to the XML train. The different flavors
of
EDI will be tremendously eroded by various flavors of EDI-XML.
There is the standardization problem, but time, in my opinion, will
resolve
it.
Martin Z. Ford, CEO
Creating the Digital Community (tm)
Hop Media, Incorporated
122 Cuvier Street
San Francisco, CA 94112
Tel: 415.333.5442
Fax: 415.680.1703
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.hopmedia.com
London, England: (+44 207) 900.2434
Milan, Italy: (+39 02) 9544.1454
Paris, France: (+33 1) 5301.4531
Munich, Germany: (+49 89) 9218.5599
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 10:11 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: xmledi-group; rachelf; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
Antony,
I'm sorry but I do have to disagree with you there, don't get me wrong
I'm
not
against XML BUT!!!!.
I'm currently sitting in a room of EDI developers right now and not one
of
them
has C++ skills or has ever needed them.
We use tools for translation and transmission which are well
established,
something which the XML world is lacking.
Also "EDI takes many months to master", I've only recently joined the
EDI
developer world and it only took me say 1 month to master the skill
before I
was
fully productive in this field. Compare this to XML which I've been
looking
at
for the past 3 months, and I still see it as some sort of a black art
requiring
all sort of Java, COM, DOM, SAX, XPATH, XSL(T), activeX, API, etc,
skills.
Feedback welcome
regards
Paul : )
Anthony Beecher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 23/08/2000 17:52:29
To: xmledi-group <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc: rachelf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>(bcc: Paul
Williams/Manchester/UK_/Kellogg)
Subject: RE: Re[2]: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
Consider the following statements made in eWeek newspaper from Ziff
Davis
Aug 7, 2000:
"by next year, 70 percent of all B2B transactions executed on the Web
will
be done using XML, Gartner Group Inc. predicts"
EDI vs. XML
EDI
1. Optimized for compressed messages
2. Requires dedicated EDI server costing $10,000 to $100,000
3. Uses value-added network
4. EDI message format can take many months to master
5. Requires C++ programmers
6. Machine Readable
XML
1. Optimized for easy display and programming
2. Requires Web server costing up to $5,000
3. Uses existing internet connection
4. XML message format can be learned in hours
5. Requires JavaScript, Visual Basic, Python or perl script writers
6. Human and machine readable
"My suggestion is to limit investments in EDI and explore ways to use
XML.
EDI will probably be around for the next 10 years though, " [Gartner's]
Knox
said.
I guess this proves it conclusively :) - EDI is dying...
<>----------------------------------<>
Anthony
-----Original Message-----
From: CHRIS KELLY [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2000 10:25 AM
To: xmledi-group-return; roy; xmledi-group
Cc: rachelf
Subject: Re[2]: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
I see that my instincts about EDI versus EDI/XML or just XML are
pretty
close to the target....I am just starting to look at XML and it
seems
cumbersome, but not difficult. I believe that W3C is in the process
of
developing 'schemas' to mirror X12 standards, that is for related
elements
in a segment, but that seems a ways off.
So of the two 'camps' or schools of thought, I believe that EDI
will
not be
replaced by XML, but useful in implementing trading partners more
quickly
if they don't have/need EDI in the background.
Thanks for your note...
Chris
______________________________ Reply Separator
_________________________________
Subject: RE: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
Author: [EMAIL PROTECTED] at INTERNET
Date: 8/22/00 10:37 PM
List-
I've been a lurker on this list for some time and I
would like to make a comment about the exitement
regarding XML and its ability to "replace" EDI.
Roy makes a good point of dividing the e-commerce
connection into three areas, Medium, Syntax, and
Semantics, so I will use these terms.
The Internet *can* replace the Medium, which is now the
expensive VAN's (Value-Added Networks). For that
matter, people can e-mail or FTP EDI documents. So
long as the receiver is sophisticated enough to receive
it, the Medium can change at any time, regardless of
whether EDI is used or not. In many cases two parters
with massive EDI exchanges elect to use an alternate
method because the convenience of the VAN cannot offset
its significant dollar costs.
Regarding the Syntax and Semantics, XML *can* replace
EDI's current syntax and semantics. But, to what
discernable benefit?
An XML Semantics *can* be a viable replacement if not
an improvment upon EDI. XML can use document format
descriptions that are more easily read by a human, so
that is one benefit.
However, the problems which plague EDI will plague its
successor, no matter what the form.
One of the biggest problems in setting up EDI systems
is what Roy refers to as the "Semantics". Namely,
with EDI every company in effect uses its own format
and its own unique business rules. Take for instance
an EDI 850 Purchase Order. Given ten companies, there
will most likely be ten different variations. An
interface written to accept one EDI 850 will not be
able to accept another.
EDI uses the ANSI X12 Standard. However, this
standard could be compared to the standard of the
English language. The words and vocabulary are
defined, yes, but tell ten people to write a letter
and each will format and phrase it differently. And
they do.
The current EDI exchange has an advantage that the
"Syntax" is already defined. XML must now go through
this growing phase, and in the end it will probably
resemble the ANSI X12 standard with better
descriptions.
The only way the inherent e-commerce problem can be
solved would be if companies somehow agree to use a
common format for their documents. This does not seem
practical, however, no matter how attractive the
concept.
EDI or any replacement in effect connects two
businesses with unlike ERP's and unlike business
rules. Each ERP will have its own special tehcnical
requirements, and business plan has special needs
which other business may not use or anticipate. These
things contribute to giving EDI a bad reputation, but
its replacement will inherit the same.
I would encourage any and all responses to this post.
Sincerely,
Jim Szyszko
EDI Contractor
--- Roy Roebuck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Good comments Rachel. I'd again bring up the point
> I've made earlier in the
> list about the semantics, syntax, and medium of
> human and machine
> interchange.
>
> "Electronic data interchange" involves an
> "electronic/electrical" medium of
> exchange, the syntax (structural rules) of exchange,
> and the semantics
> (meaning) of exchange. I have also previously
> labeled these medium, syntax,
> and semantics terms as information Carriers,
> Containers, and Content,
> respectively.
>
> Carriers/Medium would be electronic Value Added
> Networks (VAN), private
> networks (LAN/WAN, intranet, extranet), public
> Networks (Internet or Public
> Telephone - PT), etc., along with the physical
> carriers such as
> shipping/transportation companies, USPS, UPS, Fedex,
> etc.
>
> Containers/Syntax would be some form of data
> packaging/storage and
> behavior/methods using SGML, XML, SQL, SMTP, HTTP,
> S/MIME, EDI Maps, etc.
>
> Content/Semantics would be the data itself, in a
> meaningful, defined, and
> shared context (X12, EDIFACT, and other vocabularies
> and messages)
> documented and baselined in a common reference such
> as a dictionary.
>
> This data interchange would them be applied for
> purposes of integration and
> communication within a "value lattice" (i.e., a
> multilinked value-chain -
>
http://one-world-is.com/rer/owis/dem/slides/img006.gif)
> (e.g., workflow,
> application integration, enterprise application
> integration, B2B for direct
> relationships, ...B2B2B2B.... for
> single-resource-thread relationships, and
>
> E...2B2B2B2B2...R
> E...2B2B2B2B2...R
> E...2B2B2B2B2...R
> E...2B2B2B2B2...R
>
> forming a global lattice of direct and indirect
> economic/ecological and
> other relationships flowing from activities to
> Extract materiel from the
> natural enviroment and information from virtual
> environments to activities
> to Recycle materiel and information back into the
> respective natural or
> virtual environments -
>
http://one-world-is.com/rer/owis/dem/slides/img092.gif.)
>
> The choice of Carriers and Containers will evolve
> with technology (e.g.,
> private nets vs VAN vs Internet) and understanding
> of context (e.g., B2B,
> E2B2B2B2R), while the Content/Semantics will always
> involve humans seeking
> and agreeing to communicate, collaborate,
> coordinate, and share.
>
> Roy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rachel Foerster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 2:47 PM
> To: 'XML/EDI Group'
> Subject: Is the Internet/XML Going to Kill EDI?
>
>
> 1. Will the Internet enhance or replace EDI? How and
> why?
>
> A: One first must understand what EDI is....at its
> basic definition, it's
> electronic
> data interchange. This means that companies exchange
> data electronically so
> that it can automatically be processed by an
> automated, intelligent business
> system.
>
> Second, one must then understand what is meant by
> the question will the
> Internet
> replace.....etc.? Fundamentally, the Internet is a
> huge global network of
> computers
> providing almost instantaneous connectivity. Thus,
> it's actually the pipe or
> conduit
> that data/information/other objects can travel
> through to get from one
> computer
> to another. I think that what is actually being
> asked by this question is
> will the World
> Wide Web or the Web replace EDI.
>
> Of course, the answer is no.....the Internet and the
> Web will only add more
> capabilities
> and flexibility for companies who wish to engage in
> electronic business
> information
> exchanges.
>
> However, to many people, EDI is actually the current
> standards or rules (the
> ASC X12
> Standards, for example) that are used to structure
> data for electronic
> exchange.
> Hear, hear, Steve,
>
> Now, to pick up on your closing comment about XML
> not being a silver bullet,
> etc. I offer the following perspective.
> This was information I provided to an editor of a
> health care trade journal
> since the health care supply chain is mightily
> struggling to take the cost out.
>
> Rachel
>
> "Q1. Will the Internet enhance or replace EDI? How
> and why?
> A1. Today, we have a ?Tower of Babel? for electronic
> data exchange,
> proprietary flat file formats, proprietary
> non-standard uses of the ASC X12
> standards and inconsistent use of the ASC X12
> standards. XML therefore is
> being
> touted as the killer of EDI. However, since XML has
> not
> yet matured to the level of X12, there is no
> standard data dictionary, no
> standard tags, and no use of XML. Thus, we are
> actually back to the days
> before we had X12 as a standard with individual
> organizations doing their
> own thing with XML. This actually does little to
> accomplish data exchange
> and systems interoperability, and in my opinion,
> even thwarts this goal.
> The issue is cost to manage and exchange
> information. Ultimately all of the
> cost within and throughout the supply chain gets
> translated into higher
> product costs.
>
> The real heartburn has been the decades of attempts
> to easily, reliably and
> cheaply exchange data automatically between
> automated business systems
> and/or humans without having to write/rewrite custom
> interfaces. The
> expectation
> is that XML will become that universal computer
> language of the Internet and
> the Web that will enable and facilitate. It is this
> that I think people are
> thinking
> of when they say the Internet will kill EDI.
>
> There is major global joint effort between UN/CEFACT
> and OASIS with hundreds
> of participants from all over the work (the ebXML
> Initiative) working to
> bring more standardization and consistency to using
> XML in order to
> accomplish the end goal.
>
> Q2. What's the misperception you've been hearing
> about regarding EDI and the
> Internet wihtin the healthcare industry?
>
> A2: One of the primary reasons why healthcare is
> having such a difficult
> time
> with X12 is that there hasn?t been a real commitment
> by individual
>
=== message truncated ===
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