cde VC I agree with you. Indeed in future will try and be more specific.
I am happy that you raise the issue that we must avoid conspirasy on and about the MDC and indeed any other matter. I hope cdes educate themselves on the MDC from MDC documents and engage appropriately Regards On 12/9/09, Dominic Tweedie <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Cde Nqobizitha, > > I will have to be quick, there is a thunderstorm coming, and I will soon > have to unplug the modem. > > I don't personally think that anything is obvious. Let me confess that > "obvious" is a banned word from my point of view. > > I think you have to make the case for the specific kind of class alliance > that the MDC is. > > In the Chinese revolution, for example, no part of the bourgeoisie that was > not peasant, was included in the peoples revolutionary alliance. > > In South Africa it is different, and the class mix is different again in > Zimbabwe. The trouble with a phrase like "broad church" is that it is not > specific, and it must be specific, comrade. Which classes for, and which > against. You have to make that argument, comrade. Nothing can be taken for > granted. Especially not something so crucial. > > The communist party's job is not to analyse but to educate, organise and > mobilise. > > Gotta go! > > VC > > > > 2009/12/9 Nqobizitha Mlilo M <[email protected]> > >> Cde VC >> >> I agree with you cde VC and it is the same point I was trying to make >> to cde Frank when I said the reasons why the MDC did not and is not a >> communist party are obvious. I thought cde Frank would understand >> without needing explanation the need for a mass movement. >> >> Further, when I say the MDC has to be a broad church and the working >> class can has those short or minimum program of action allies within >> the broad church. This is what cde Frank needs to understand. >> >> However, am equally saying the weaknesses in the MDC are because there >> is no vanguard party in Zimbabwe whose duty is to keep providing >> analysis and political direction. A communist party would purify the >> MDC and keep it focused and clear. The view of dismissing the MDC can >> therefore not be mine but cde Franks. >> >> I think you are also correct that we may be missing things at some >> points. I think its because when people critique the MDC they do so >> without any reference to the party positions and documents but rather >> from the lies they have heard. This is why I always ask cdes to refer >> to MDC documents so that the engagement is based on facts rather than >> imaginations. I look forward to the day when the MDC will be judged >> on its writen party positions not peoples imaginations of the MDC. >> >> Again cde Frank am asking that you read the MDC website and engage the >> issues and not what so and so has made you believe about the MDC >> >> Amandla >> >> >> On 12/9/09, Dominic Tweedie <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Dear Cde Nqobizitha, >> > >> > Greetings to your ever-cheerful and charming self. >> > >> > You know that I am sympathetic to you personally and to your honest and >> > energetic pursuit of political truth, which I have observed, and have >> > had >> > the pleasure of sharing for several years past. >> > >> > I think we may have had an e-mail correspondence like this before, on >> this >> > forum, that was not concluded? I have forgotten the details >> > >> > What I would like to contribute, now, is not to contradict you, or >> Comrade >> > Frank Talk, or any of the others, but just to wonder whether any of us >> have >> > really arrived at a clearly defensible understanding of this question, >> > in >> > general terms. >> > >> > In particular terms it could be the relationship between the SACP and >> > the >> > ANC, as you say, or the relationship between a possible Zimbabwean >> Communist >> > Party and other structures, or the relationship between the Communist >> Party >> > of the Soviet Union, and the Soviets. >> > >> > In general terms it is the relationship between the vanguard and the >> mass. >> > >> > In terms of "the classics" this discussion is elaborated following the >> > publication of Eduard Bernstein's "Evolutionary Socialism" in 1898 or >> 1899, >> > followed by Rosa Luxemburg's lambasting of Bernstein in her book "Reform >> or >> > Revolution" and soon after that, Lenin's "What is to be Done". There >> > were >> > further exchanges between Luxemburg and Lenin, which we may leave aside >> for >> > now. Let's just say that it is all searchable on the Communist >> > University >> > Blog. >> > >> > To cut a long story short, the vanguard is not a substitute for the >> > mass. >> > Nor is the mass an alternative to the vanguard. >> > >> > Further, the vanguard party of the working class is not equivalent to >> > any >> > other party. It is not like a bourgeois party, particularly because a >> > Communist Party does not seek power. >> > >> > Bourgeois parties contend with each other to have temporary power over >> the >> > bourgeois state, for bourgeois purposes. The bourgeois political system >> is >> > about "spoils" of victory. We, the communists, are not in that game. >> There >> > is no question of a communist party, as a ruling party in the bourgeois >> > sense, running a bourgeois state, on behalf of the bourgeoisie. This >> > does >> > not exist. >> > >> > This is why from my point of view, it seems that both Frank Talk and >> > yourself may be arguing from the same false premises. Why didn't the >> working >> > class take over, you all seem to ask, and feel obliged to answer, giving >> > circumstantial reasons, some seeking to blame, others to escape from >> blame. >> > >> > Lenin argued that the trade union movement could not produce a political >> > determination, or organisation, that could achieve a working-class >> > ascendancy. This was at the time that the Labour Party, coincidentally, >> was >> > arising out of the British Trade Union movement. Thee are plenty of >> > other >> > examples where what Lenin said, came true. The MDC is one of those. >> > >> > I think you are correct, Cde Nqobizitha, to say that Zimbabwe needs a >> > vanguard party of the working class. But if you think that such a >> communist >> > party can replace a party like the MDC, or in South Africa that the SACP >> can >> > replace the ANC, then you are mistaken. >> > >> > If Frank Talk thinks that the MDC was ever going to be a revolutionary >> > party, he is also mistaken. If Frank Talk thinks that Zanu-PF is a >> > revolutionary party of the working class, he is equally mistaken. >> > >> > Where I think you are more correct, and where I think Frank Talk is not >> > correct, is that the masses always have to be respected, and the MDC is >> > a >> > mass party, and it has to be respected as such. >> > >> > Asikhulume! >> > >> > VC >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Nqobizitha Mlilo M wrote: >> >> >> >> cde Frank >> >> >> >> Look my leader, lets engage the issues and provide substantative facts >> >> rather than subjective issues. >> >> >> >> I have consistantly, on this forum, requested that there be evidence >> >> that the MDC is anything other than a genuine product of the people of >> >> Zimbabwe. That is all i have requested. >> >> >> >> You make sweeping statements and insinuations on the strategic >> >> objective and the reasons the MDC was formed which have no basis in >> >> fact but rather are mere products of malicious propaganda. >> >> >> >> I am saying the formation of the MDC was a product of the consulation >> >> process led by the trade union which produced a document called the >> >> Raw Data. This Raw Data captured amongst other things that the land >> >> question must be addressed. It also said there was need of a broad >> >> church political organisation that would fight the dictatorship and >> >> address the completion of the ideals of the struggle against >> >> colonialism. Remember my leader that the trade union was in alliance >> >> with zanu pf and when the differences sharpened with the trade union >> >> speaking to the land issue, Mugabe insulted and arrested them and told >> >> them to go form a politic party. That answers your question on why we >> >> didnt fight from within. It also effectively restates that the MDC was >> >> a product of the masses of Zimbabwe. >> >> >> >> Why the MDC did not pronounce itself as a communist party is >> >> politically self evident from a political tactical perspective. The >> >> working class while still weak needs allies and a broad church, just >> >> as the ANC in South Africa is needed. I think its quite obvious. >> >> >> >> Issues of personal interests therefore do not arise therefore given >> >> the above. I invited you to read the website and documents of the MDC >> >> and not take positions based on propaganda. It will make our debates >> >> easier and focused. >> >> >> >> Amandla >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > You are subscribed. 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Mr. Nelson >> Chamisa 0912940489 National Spokesperson or Mr. Luke Tamborinyoka >> 0912104416 or [email protected] or Nqobizitha Mlilo (Zimbabwe) >> 00263913294724 or (South Africa) 0835274650 or 0731539555 or >> [email protected] or [email protected] >> >> "At each point in our proud history we have looked forward not >> backwards, we have stood for hope not fear, we have believed in love >> not hate, and we have never lost touch with our democratic values or >> sight of our democratic goals." ~ His Execellency, Prime Minister of >> the Republic of Zimbabwe, Mr Morgan Richard Tsvangirai >> >> -- >> You are subscribed. This footer can help you. >> Please POST your comments to [email protected] or reply to >> this message. >> You can visit the group WEB SITE at >> http://groups.google.com/group/yclsa-eom-forum for different delivery >> options, pages, files and membership. >> To UNSUBSCRIBE, please email [email protected]. >> You don't have to put anything in the "Subject:" field. You don't have to >> put anything in the message part. All you have to do is to send an e-mail >> to >> this address (repeat): [email protected] . >> > > > > -- > Blog at: http://domza.blogspot.com/ > Communist University web site at: http://amadlandawonye.wikispaces.com/ > Subscribe for free e-mail updates at: > http://groups.google.com/group/Communist-University/ > Library of documents (CU "CD") at: http://cu.domza.net/ > [email protected] > > -- > You are subscribed. This footer can help you. > Please POST your comments to [email protected] or reply to > this message. > You can visit the group WEB SITE at > http://groups.google.com/group/yclsa-eom-forum for different delivery > options, pages, files and membership. > To UNSUBSCRIBE, please email [email protected] . > You don't have to put anything in the "Subject:" field. You don't have to > put anything in the message part. All you have to do is to send an e-mail to > this address (repeat): [email protected] . > -- For more information please call MDC (Zimbabwe) Hon. Mr. Nelson Chamisa 0912940489 National Spokesperson or Mr. Luke Tamborinyoka 0912104416 or [email protected] or Nqobizitha Mlilo (Zimbabwe) 00263913294724 or (South Africa) 0835274650 or 0731539555 or [email protected] or [email protected] "At each point in our proud history we have looked forward not backwards, we have stood for hope not fear, we have believed in love not hate, and we have never lost touch with our democratic values or sight of our democratic goals." ~ His Execellency, Prime Minister of the Republic of Zimbabwe, Mr Morgan Richard Tsvangirai -- You are subscribed. This footer can help you. Please POST your comments to [email protected] or reply to this message. You can visit the group WEB SITE at http://groups.google.com/group/yclsa-eom-forum for different delivery options, pages, files and membership. 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