Re: [YCLSA Discussion] The Changing Times Online

[Dominic Tweedie]

Cde Thembinkosi, Thank you so much for quoting "Conservative or Bourgeois Socialism" from the Communist Manifesto. Good one! On Cde Thidiso's point: With all due respect to Cde Nqaba, and he is welcome here as far as I am concerned, yet I was trying to make a different point, and not trying to say that he should be made comfortable while others are not comfortable. Communists have to move among workers. What are you going to do if you meet workers with bourgeois opinions? Such people are very common! They are part of the proletariat. The communists cannot shun them. The communists have to learn how to talk to them. Among other things I am saying that the presence of Cde Nqaba (and I hope he does not mind me saying this) is an opportunity, not to beat him up, but to learn how to hold up a dialogue with somebody of that persuasion, keep your dignity, keep everybody smiling, and express your views, all at once. It's a skill that the best communists have. It comes from practice, experience, and confidence. It means that they are at home with everyone, like Chris Hani was, for example. I admire that. I still want to be like that some day. In struggle, VC Mnguni, Thembinkosi wrote: This message (and attachments) is subject to restrictions and a disclaimer. Please refer to http://www.unisa.ac.za/disclaimer for full details. VC This is a very correct answer that you have provided but as much as it stimulate Nqaba, to me COPE does not in any way closer to have characteristics of the working class so as Nqaba, we will then look very closely in his comments which to me are of Conservative or Bougeois Socialism nothing else. “The socialistic bourgeois want all the advantages of modern social conditions without the struggles and dangers necessarily resulting therefrom. They desire the existing state of society, minus its revolutionary and disintegrating elements. They wish for a bourgeoisie without a proletariat. The bourgeoisie naturally conceives the world in which it is supreme to be the best; and bourgeois socialism develops this comfortable conception into various more or less complete systems. In requiring the proletariat to carry out such a system, and thereby to march straightaway into the social New Jerusalem, it but requires in reality that the proletariat should remain within the bounds of existing society, but should cast away all its hateful ideas concerning the bourgeoisie” Ends     From: yclsa-eom-forum@googlegroups.com [mailto:yclsa-eom-forum@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nqaba Bhanga Sent: 10 December 2009 09:39 AM To: yclsa-eom-forum@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] The Changing Times Online   Cde Dominic   Today ,I got the most satisfying response from a learning communist in our country , you have just revived my conviction and hope for a Socialist Society under the guide of Marxism -Leninism.   >>> Dominic Tweedie <dominic.twee...@gmail.com> 2009/12/10 09:28 AM >>> Dear Cde Nqaba, Concerning this forum, let me repeat again: there is no barrier, except when it comes to spam. Spammers are banned. In terms of the Communist University "contact sessions" (study circles), there is no questionnaire; there is no interrogation, vetting or interview; there are no preconceived exclusions. It is not impossible that the comrades might one day rise up in a fury and throw somebody out, but it has never happened to date. I would say that the communists must be comfortable among the people, and they must be accustomed to dialogue with all kinds of people, and they need to practice, so that they become able to make headway in the presence of all sorts of people. Communism is not a sect. It is not a cult for initiates only. Communism is the natural way of thought for human beings, far more so than capitalism, for example. Here are a few words from the "Communist Manifesto": "In what relation do the Communists stand to the proletarians as a whole? The Communists do not form a separate party opposed to the other working-class parties. "They have no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole. "They do not set up any sectarian principles of their own, by which to shape and mold the proletarian movement." "In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things. "In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time. "Finally, they labor everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries." Domza, VC and Student. Nqaba Bhanga wrote: Cde Dominic ,   I would like to ask whether learning communist from COPE welcomed to, forums of discussion in the same understanding of MDC and Zanu-PF     Dominic Tweedie <dominic.twee...@gmail.com> 2009/12/10 06:47 AM >>>         The trouble with this contribution from Frank Talk is that it walks away from the strong lights of the political stage, towards the endless darkness of conspiracy.   What is "predictable", to use Frank's chosen word, and what was indeed predicted by Lenin among others, is that the trade union movement will, by itself, only produce a reformist political movement and not a revolutionary one. It is not that it "can be" so, as Frank Talk puts it, but that it is always going to be so.   In "What is to be Done?" Lenin called this problem "economism". It is to escape from "economism" that Lenin proposes a generalist party of revolutionaries to educate, organise and mobilise the masses.   Without such a party of revolutionaries there is no possibility of anything other than the reformist kind of socialism, which is a kind of bourgeois state with a temporarily modified appearance, and which is what is nowadays referred to as "social democracy".   Communists have to graduate from conspiracy theory to something else. Not that conspiracies do not exist. "Personal agendas" and "darlings of the Imperialists" and all the rest can be found if you look for them.   The problem is that eliminating all of the conspiracies, even if it was possible, would not eliminate the much larger problem, which is that we proceed from a mass consciousness that is reformist and bourgeois. We proceed from a bourgeois society.   We communists are the ones who encourage the formation of reformist organisations of the working classes and of other self-defined masses, even when they do not spontaneously appear. We do not expect them to be spontaneously communist. It is no use to blame a trade union movement for being reformist, and especially useless to do so when there is no dedicated revolutionary party present, as in Zimbabwe.   Both Frank and Mlilo seem to think that the communists could, by being honest and pure of mind, and by having a smart "analysis", naturally lead the masses. This is as mistake. More than a state of mind, leadership is a piece of work. Cleverness and will-power are not enough.   Educating, organising and mobilising is hard, grinding work. Also, from the start, you must love the masses, who in Zimbabwe are not only workers but also peasants, because at the start they are not your converts, and you are not a missionary, but you are hopefully a revolutionary who wants freedom (the free development of each that is the condition for the free development of all).   You can't love the masses and want them to be free if you think of them as fools or sellouts (if, in other words, you cannot trust them). This is why conspiracy theory is a handicap for communists. Not because there are no conspirators, but because the existence or otherwise of conspirators is beside the main revolutionary point.   Hunting for conspirators is a diversion, Frank, and by the way, the reason Cde Mlilo is here at all is because he walked into our Communist University session one day in the SACP boardroom in COSATU House and introduced himself. He sought us, and when he found us, we welcomed him, as we had welcomed the other MDC crowd before him, and as we would have welcomed Zanu-PF as well if they had come (but during six years to date, Zanu-PF never did come, or even send a message).   The Communist University is not for perfect communists but for ordinary people who are imperfect in all sorts of ways, and where we are all of us, without any exceptions, students.   Domza   Student.         2009/12/8 frank talk <tlkf...@yahoo.co.uk>       -- You are subscribed. This footer can help you. Please POST your comments to yclsa-eom-forum@googlegroups.com or reply to this message. You can visit the group WEB SITE at http://groups.google.com/group/yclsa-eom-forum for different delivery options, pages, files and membership. To UNSUBSCRIBE, please email yclsa-eom-forum-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . You don't have to put anything in the "Subject:" field. You don't have to put anything in the message part. All you have to do is to send an e-mail to this address (repeat): yclsa-eom-forum-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . Disclaimer Before acting on the contents of this e-mail, the recipient should verify that the originator has the appropriate authority and any person neglecting to obtain such verification will be acting entirely at his/her own risk. Please further note that any confidential, private or privileged information contained in the message is subject to legal privilege. -- -- You are subscribed. This footer can help you. Please POST your comments to yclsa-eom-forum@googlegroups.com or reply to this message. You can visit the group WEB SITE at http://groups.google.com/group/yclsa-eom-forum for different delivery options, pages, files and membership. To UNSUBSCRIBE, please email yclsa-eom-forum-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . You don't have to put anything in the "Subject:" field. You don't have to put anything in the message part. All you have to do is to send an e-mail to this address (repeat): yclsa-eom-forum-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com .