Could you explain your argument, if you have one, VC? ________________________________
From: [email protected] on behalf of Dominic Tweedie Sent: Wed 2011/04/13 08:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Why Shiceka should STAY ON - at least for now We don't deal in gossips here. To say that tribalism is a national gossip therefore it is legitimate is not acceptable. This discussion had better stop now. VC On 13 April 2011 19:22, <[email protected]> wrote: Comrades, As correctly spelt out by Skizo on my rights. I am compelled by my unresting mind to make a contribution. Firstly, there is a smoke in the ministry of cooperative governance and some quotations which I suspect are statements made to the media around this matter. However, the issue remains a heresy until government conducts its investigation so as to bring sanity to the matter at hand. However, it is correct to say, should there be an authenticity to the allegations, the Presidency should act decisively in rooting out corruption. In Mpumalanga, an MEC was redeployed to the legislature after sending a security guard to go fetch shoes as far as 300km away using state resources (car, money and the time of the employee) for personal glory. Personal aggrandisement and greed are central elements of capitalism or capitalist tendencies at the expense of taxpayers resources. The suggestion of the outcome or verdict should the issue be found true is not out of hand. One of the apex priorities of the ANC in government is to out-root corruption. Redeployment or rather call it firing of the minister should the allegations be confirmed is the most important indication of the seriousness of the ANC in corruption matters. Definitely, the President does not have powers to expel members of parliament but reserves the authority enshrined in the constitution to invite and disinvite cabinet members. Surely, based on this prerogative, it is correct for COSATU and other sane citizens to suggest a harsh verdict after the investigations found the minister to be on the wrong. This is informed by the knowledge that such actions will be within the confines of the constitution. On the matter of Zulunification, I stand by Skizo but not on the related examples he made but on the perception within ANC branches dominated by other ethnic groups. It is not wrong for Skizo to openly engage on the matter because honestly it is a national gossip. It came out on appointments that the security cluster was Zululised. It also came out that the Zulus dominate cabinet. It also came out that the shuffling of cabinet did not affect Zulus. Why do we want to behave as if the tribal card is not part of our daily gossips and perception. This is even rife now in the leadership debates towards Mangaung. The leadership is debated on which tribe should preside now. I agree that the ANC declared regionalism and tribalism as an enemy of the movement but it still exist among us. Equally, the same tribal card was used as part of the campaign to have Zuma as President. T-Shirts were written in bold 100% Zulu boy. It is very interesting when comrades say we are beyond this tribal discussion. Racism includes among others tribal discrimination, regionalism, cultural and religious discrimination, colour bar etc. Do we really believe that racism is not part of our daily lives. As a principle, racism is wrong but we still pronounce racist statements everyday hence the tribal card has not left our small heads. Until we face the truth, we will live with this regional and tribal conflicts forever.... Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] Sender: [email protected] Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:41:30 To: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Why Shiceka should STAY ON - at least for now U correct my leader I think our intelligent state agency are opposition party's agency's n also news papers Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -----Original Message----- From: "Setja Diphoko" <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:30:40 To: <[email protected]>; CU<[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Why Shiceka should STAY ON - at least for now Comrades, We can cut and paste various quotes by intellectuals and scholars. If Comrade Minister is found to have engaged in any wrong doing, corrective action must be taken. It doesn't matter what tribe he comes from, we don't talk tribalism these days! The way allegations are popping left, right and center-one can make a qualified opinion that intelligence state agencies are used in order to source such information as this goes beyond the scope of investigative journalism, but nevertheless WRONG is WRONG and it should be corrected! Comradely yours Lesetja Diphoko "Sent via my BlackBerry" -----Original Message----- From: City Bokaba <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 06:52:13 To: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [YCLSA Discussion] Why Shiceka should STAY ON - at least for now Cde Skizo, I stand to agree with the notion that says the allegations reported on newspapers about cde Shiceka should be invistigated and if there is truth around that necessary steps should be taken , but on Zulunisation of the society is our own opinion & you are protected by the constitution whether there is truth in there i don't know. On Wed Apr 13th, 2011 9:12 AM EDT Skizo Skizo wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Why Shiceka should STAY ON - at least for now > >Comrades, friends > >Since I was born I have always taken the liberty to air my views on any matter as I deem appropriate, using any appropriate platform at my disposal, whenever an opportunity presents itself. My views are not intended to cause harm to or praise anybody. At all material times I endeavour to be above board and stick to matters of principle. > >Some of the issues I raise may be considered sensitive. But I, like any other South African, have the right to formulate an opinion on any matter, in accordance with the dictates of our Constitution. The Constitution is the cornerstone of our democracy and guarantor of freedom. In Section 15(1) it guarantees all of us, South Africans, the right to freedom of conscience, religion, thought, belief and opinion. Section 16(1) guarantees us the right to freedom of expression, which includes freedom to receive or impart information or ideas. These rights are, however, subject to the Limitation Clause of the Constitution - which is section 16(2). > I therefore wish to encourage anybody interested in debates to engage calmly and focus solely on substance and avoid resorting to emotive language. As the Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Tutu's correctly said during the 2004 Nelson Mandela Lecture, "We should not impugn the motives of others but accept the bona fides of all. If we believe in something, then surely we will be ready to defend it rationally, hoping to persuade those opposed to change their point of view... We should not be browbeaten by pontificating decrees from on high. It should be possible to talk as adults about issues without engaging in slanging matches." >Comrades, friends and colleagues >A few days ago, our faces froze at the loud newspaper headlines about Minister Sicelo Shiceka's alleged corrupt activities. Since then there have been calls for government to investigate claims that Minister Shiceka improperly used state money to gallivant the world. These calls should be welcome. But those calls for the President to simply fire him are politically preposterous and should be rejected with the contempt they deserve. No minister should be fired on the basis of newspaper headlines. After all, Honourable Shiceka is not the only minister to make headlines for wrong reasons. We have plenty of such ministers; the list is long. The Honourable Shiceka is innocent until proven otherwise by a competent authority - be it the Office of the Public Protector or a court of law. Any suggestion to the contrary would not hold water, save for pure political ends. > >As you would recall, not too long ago the National Police Commissioner was reported in the media to have improperly influenced the signing of a lease agreement for new police headquarters. Despite voluminous calls for him to be fired, he stayed on. Instead, and correctly so, an investigation was initiated and findings thereof were presented to Cabinet - at least this information is in the public domain already; I therefore cannot be accused of illegally disseminating classified information. > >Again, not too long ago, the wife of our Intelligence Minister was arrested on charges of drug dealing and smuggling. Some quarters of our society called for the Minister's head, but he has stayed on to this day. > >The current president, before his ascendancy to the highest office in the land, was a regular visitor to courts on allegations of corruption. Some within our society complained so vociferously that he was unfairly charged and prosecuted through the court of public opinion in order to serve narrow political ends of some factions within the ruling party. As we all know, the case was dropped by the NPA because it had been 'so politically contaminated' that continuing with prosecution would not serve the interests of justice. > >Given this set of precedence, it would not only be politically counter-intuitive but also procedurally and morally reprehensible to simply fire Honourable Shiceka. Those who aver that he is corrupt must prove and let the competent authorities to be the final arbiter. If the allegations are found to be true, then the Honourable Minister must face the consequences. As the ANC (of which I have been a member for at least 13 years) said following its NEC lekgotla earlier this year, our criminal justice system must ensure that those found guilty of corruption are subjected to the harshest of sentences. Nothing should be taken away from that statement. >Some may argue that because of the gravity of allegations, the Minister should step down or be fired. They possibly would argue that it is politically important that the President sends out a clear message that he and his government will not tolerate corruption. This may be true. But it is also politically true that the President should not be seen to be purging particular sections of our society, especially noting that General Cele and Honourable Cwele - both of whom are of the same ethnic group as the President - have been allowed to stay on. Any hurried action against Honourable Shiceka may give credence to the perception of Zulunisation of South African politics and the concomitant cleansing of the so-called Xhosa nostra. Isn't that a politically hot issue as well? > >As Frederick van Zyl Slabbert once cautioned "... politics in South Africa is not like a computer game where a cyberspace monster munches its way through all obstacles until it gets to the target". As he emphasized, "A politician has to deal with the fears, prejudices, aspirations and ambitions of the average voter. These are shaped by historical circumstances that give content to the current dynamics of politics". > >Ndisatshaya! > > > > > > >-- >You are subscribed. This footer can help you. >Please POST your comments to [email protected] or reply to this message. >You can visit the group WEB SITE at http://groups.google.com/group/yclsa-eom-forum for different delivery options, pages, files and membership. >To UNSUBSCRIBE, please email [email protected] . You don't have to put anything in the "Subject:" field. You don't have to put anything in the message part. 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