I'm not sure I understand  your point. You are the one who brings up the topic 
of sex in conjunction (I assume) with spirituality.  Specifically tantra and 
Buiddhism.  I don't view or use sex as a means to sacred spiritual awareness It 
is part of my relationship with a man I love.  While I find your comments 
abrupt, they are also confusing. I don't know what you mean by ndes, and you 
lost me with the comment on LSD and senior runners.  You mentioned drug-induced 
states, so I commented on that as an adjunct.
I thought your point was that you wanted  to find some type of spiritual 
awareness /awakening via sex and orgy-houses,  as  part of a buddhist /zen 
practice.  I don't even know what an orgy-house is.  Is that a brothel?  I 
understand orgy as train-sex. Thats not my style, and how one could ever see 
orgy sex as sacred is beyond me. But go for it.  Moreover, when I questioned 
you initially  about why you mention it so often, you stated that it gave some 
humor to the forum.
I shared a personal experience as a means to open a dialogue about a topic you 
seem to care deeply about.   Perhaps it is a cultural mis-perception.  I  felt 
that you discuss it alot because you actually have unfulfilled needs, and I was 
trying  to offer my support by suggesting that sex can be a part of life at any 
I question dharma,  and many spiritual disciplines, mostly because I am not 
seeking a guru as a means to an end.  My zen and other spiritual practices are 
part of a balanced lifestyle. They are not my entire focus.  They serve as a 
foundation to guide me in my work, relationships, values and character. They 
are the base of my integrity and  help me offer what I  can in my everyday , 
busy life. They help me resolve conflicts.  They mediate my stress. They guide 
my compassion and offer some wisdom.
But I do not cling to a particular dharma path or religious  doctrine. I allow 
those to flow within, and change over time, as everything does. As said before, 
what works for others is completely fine with me.
Be well.. 

--- On Mon, 11/8/10, Anthony Wu <> wrote:

From: Anthony Wu <>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Date: Monday, November 8, 2010, 2:46 PM


I appreciate your candor and enjoy your stories. I understand you had an 
eventless nde, but colorful sex experiences. You should be satisfied. Why 
should you question dharma, scriptures and the meaning of exitence? 
I know sex climax, LSD and ndes are all different, hard to compare. Forgetting 
how a senior runner should perform for the time being, my original question is 
how Tantra reconcile sexuality and Buddhism (LSD and nde are not yet in the 
game). I am not against sex, as long as it is carried out in an appropriate 
place, including an 'orgyhouse'. But it is a different matter when it is 
performed in a monastry.

--- On Mon, 8/11/10, Kristy McClain <> wrote:

From: Kristy McClain <>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Date: Monday, 8 November, 2010, 6:25 AM


Hi Anthony,
You bring up  a good point. I will say that while the particular experience I 
shared was fairly athletic in the physical sensations, I don't  necessarily 
think that age or  disability precludes this same inner intensity and, for lack 
of a better word, 'peak ' experience. Similarly, senior runners often complete 
marathons and  experience  the same endorphin "highs" as the younger 
participants.  In those events, they are likely a result of physiology more 
so than spirit, but you  understand my point. We all know that a major key to 
eroticism is between our ears, not  our legs. 
I shared that particular experience because it was so very  intense, yet it was 
not something born from  practice, preparation or love. To the contrary. I met 
this man through mutual friends   years ago. While there was an immediate 
physical attraction, I felt initially very intimidated by his career/ education 
and background. I thought he would be very judgemental of me, and I feel 
inadequate by comparison.
Since we had no prior contact, and I had no reason to believe  this would lead 
anywhere, I just decided to be gracious, but very down-to-earth and honest 
about myself. I was going to school in Palo Alto, and he lived in Newport 
Beach.  When  we met again in L.A. a few weeks later,  this just 'happened'.  
Neither of us really knew how to handle it afterwards.
I'm not sure I agree that a similar experience can be induced by-- say a drug 
like LSD. Yes--  hallucinogenics have induced some amazing altered states, but, 
I am doubtful they are the same. Not better nor worse, but different.
Having had a near-death experience, I cannot  report anything  like I read in 
the books. 
I dunno-- I don't personally believe there is a 'recipe' that can be  followed, 
learned, practiced or guided towards,  so that one can experience this state of 
bliss / nirvana / enlightment / god-source and the like. It is, in fact, my 
total life experience that does make me question the dharma, the scriptures, 
the psycho-biology of the meaning of existence. Its not a zero-sum game. 
At this point in my life, I think there are different paths for each of us.
Enjoy your eve.. Kristy

--- On Sun, 11/7/10, Anthony Wu <> wrote:

From: Anthony Wu <>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Date: Sunday, November 7, 2010, 2:12 PM


I understand. I am 71. When I was young, I had similar experiences, though not 
so often, as it depended on occassions and surroudings. Like you say, that 
explains why Tantrism puts so much significance on sexism, as it definitely is 
'spiritual', in addition to physical. However, there are other ways. How 
about heroin and other drugs? They induce similar experiences. I have not tried 
them, but read some 'fantastic' descriptions. On the other hand, near death 
experiences seem to be another type. There is bliss, but does not appear to be 
'mind blowing'. 

--- On Sun, 7/11/10, Kristy McClain <> wrote:

From: Kristy McClain <>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Date: Sunday, 7 November, 2010, 6:44 PM


As I have neither the time nor expertise to substitute  there.. let me offer a  
more serious thought. 
If you  truly are asking a question about if or how sexuality  intersects with 
spirituality, I can say that I had an experience wherein there was such a 
fusion of physical body and soul / heart / mind energies (however you  
interpret those), that it was  as if space and time fell away or  did not 
exist. There were no egos, secrets, inhibitions or thoughts. Consciousness and 
physicality merged. Its primal energy and primordial spirit. Animal intensity 
but somehow driven by a soul awareness for which there are no words. An 
intensity beyond measure and impossible to duplicate exactly. An intimacy so 
profound it felt like touching God-source (however  defined). A complete 
acceptance of energy flow.
I couldn't speak for a day. My body tingled for nearly a week. I had no desire 
for food and drank only small amounts of water at a time for days. Its just 
un-defineable. Its experential.
But , for me, it left me believing in "spirit" (beit mind /heart or soul).  k
--- On Sat, 11/6/10, Anthony Wu <> wrote:

From: Anthony Wu <>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 4:50 PM


K and E,
My local zen center just had the teacher quit. Who will apply for the job to 
supervise the activities in the basement?

--- On Sun, 7/11/10, Kristy McClain <> wrote:

From: Kristy McClain <>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Date: Sunday, 7 November, 2010, 2:43 AM


Good Morning Ed,
I think you may be confusing femininst with fem-domme here. Its likely that Tim 
understands the joys of ball-clamps better than most.
As for Anthony-- if pain and pleasure  are the yin /yang of lust, perhaps a 
dungeon in the basement of his local zen center is precisely where he should 
begin his journey.
Rainy here today. I love a rany day now and again. A day for tea and 
contemplation, or simply a day to stay in bed? Perhaps the net experience is 
the same. 
Be well.. k

--- On Sat, 11/6/10, ED <> wrote:

From: ED <>
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
Date: Saturday, November 6, 2010, 8:57 AM


OTOH, one ball-breaking liaison with an American feminist might cure A's 
curiosity about Tantric sex for good!  ;-)  e
--- In, Kristy McClain <healthypl...@...> wrote:
> *chuckles*
> Well then-- I dare say that you have a homework assignment this weekend. 
> Please don't spare us any of the details Monday morning.
> Is it comparable with buddhism? I can offer that Bill IS correct on this 
> point because it truly is 'just this'!  A true experience of universal 
> one-ness, with no need for ego, intellect or thought of any kind. I invite 
> you to seek your tantric tigress and let the flow of energy be your guide.  
> Enjoy ;)  k

> Kristy,
> I haven't had a mind blowing experience for a long time, but I will search in 
> my memory to locate it. 
> My curiosity on Tantrism in regard to sex remains. Is it compatible with 
> Buddhism? 
> Anthony

> Anthony;)
> One experience of truly mind-blowing sex can tell you this.  Enjoy your 
> weekend...K

> ......"they shed light on the relationship with lust and spiritualism.
> I am curious why Tantrism attaches so much significance to that.
> Anthony


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