Hmm, sorry Anthony. did not get it this time. Which part is discriminating?

Do you mean self witness?

Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org


On 11/27/2010 6:59 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:

JMJM,
You say: The key to enlightenment is to clearly detached from all "form, description, labels". Self witness is the only truthful path.
Isn't that also discriminating.
You also say: I am not offended, just concerned. Not only you, but everyone I come to contact.
That is why I say you are kindhearted.
Anthony

--- On *Sat, 27/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 /<chan.j...@gmail.com>/* wrote:


    From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: [Zen] Nirvana and Buddhahood
    To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    Date: Saturday, 27 November, 2010, 10:50 PM

    Anthony,

    There are indeed different practices. Neither am I saying my
    practice is the only way.

    Yet, if you read your posts carefully, you are discriminating
    concept and terms instead of practices.  You are saying this is
    Buddhist and that is not Buddhist.  You are saying this is
    sentient being and that is not sentient being.  That's karma and
    that is not karma.

    The key to enlightenment is to clearly detached from all "form,
    description, labels".  Self witness is the only truthful path.

    What's I am trying to convey is not to focus on concept, but
    practice.  Any kind of practice, which I have failed to read from
    you post all these years.  You seem to be standing on the sideline
    and having fun.

    I am not offended, just concerned.  Not only you, but everyone I
    come to contact.

    There is not very much time for all of us.  We need to cut through
    the delusions. Meaning put down all value we hold dearly and let
    our heart shine through.

    JM

    Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
    http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com  <http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/>
    http://www.heartchan.org  <http://www.heartchan.org/>


    On 11/27/2010 5:43 AM, Anthony Wu wrote:
    JMJM,

    I am not saying you are wrong. If you are happy with your
    practice and feel good, that is great. However, please note:

    There are different ways of practice, with very different results.

    It is too early for you to come to the conclusion that you have
    'surpassed' your karma. There are no signs that you are able to
    see your previous and future lives, so you don't know how your
    karma has performed and will work out. Maybe you deny the
    existence of past and future lives, then you are like a
    materialist that doesn't recognize karma. That is possibly a
    contradiction.

    There is no doubt 'chi' is an important factor. I believe so,
    though I don't know much about it.

    >>From what you have posted so far, I already came to the
    conclusion that the heart chan benefits from both Buddhism and
    Taoism. But you cannot claim that all chan schools have the same
    way. The Chinese word chan is derived from Sanskrit jhana, and
    has developed from into many different schools, such as Tiantai,
    Linji (Rinzai), Caodong (Soto) etc.

    I am sorry if I am disturbing your busy schedule. I only hope
    that you are not like fanatic moslims or Christians who claim
    they are the 'only' correct way.

    Don't be offended by what I have said. Please refer to the
    Diamond Sutra: the Buddha has said nothing, neither have I (grin).

    Anthony

    --- On Sat, 27/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
    <chan.j...@gmail.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com>>
    wrote:

    From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com>>
    Subject: Re: [Zen] Nirvana and Buddhahood
    To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
    Date: Saturday, 27 November, 2010, 7:42 AM



    Dearest Anthony,

    The following words are from my heart.  Please read them
    carefully.  I am getting busier everyday and having less and less
    time to post.

    Chan benefits from the essence of Tao and Buddhism.  Chan
    practices with Tao principles for immortality and explains
    spirituality with Buddhism terms.  In the end both health and
    spirituality are formless and language less.  While I notice that
    you are still caught in categorization and analyzing with your head.

    What I shared with you is the teaching from a living Buddha and a
    Chan Master.  We have over half a million people benefited from
    his teaching and hundreds have already witnessed most of his journey.

    I have witnessed the cells as sentient beings.  I have witnessed
    critical importance of chi to help us surpass our karmic physic
    hindrance.  I have witnessed a true journey.  Yet I must tell you
    that journey is just
    journey.  Journey is indescribable with words.  Nirvana,
    enlightenment and Buddhahood are still just words to me.  They
    are not important because they are not absolute and they are not IT.

    Nothing is more precious than the practice.  (Let us practice
    without our mind.)

    Nothing is more important than self-witness.  (Let us not idolize
    words.)

    And there is really nothing else.  (Just detach from everything
    including my post and follow your heart.)

    JMJM
    Head Teacher
    Order of Buddha Heart
    Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
    http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com <http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/>
    http://www.heartchan.org <http://www.heartchan.org/>

    On 11/26/2010 2:17 PM, Anthony Wu wrote:


    JMJM,

    Energizing cells is different from saving sentient beings. Union
    with unversal 'chi' is a taoist idea, not buddhist. If you feel
    good about your approach, that is fine. But whether you can
    surpass your karmic hindrances is another matter. Moreover, I
    don't understand how Buddhahood and/or nirvana can be graded or
    classified.

    Anthony


    --- On Sat, 27/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明
    <chan.j...@gmail.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com>>
    wrote:

    From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=chan.jmjm%40gmail.com>>
    Subject: [Zen] Nirvana and Buddhahood
    To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
    Date: Saturday, 27 November, 2010, 4:02 AM



    Bill and Anthony,

    I was taught to practice as follows for your reference.  It may
not be the same as some of the teachings that you "understand". But my witness so far is quite on par.

    First we practice to clean up our body, through chi based
    cultivation. As we become healthier, all sentient beings within
    our body are saved, meaning every cell is energized.

    As we focus on these chakras and chi channels, we begin to be
    detached from all forms.  And our awareness is enhanced.  Our
    Inner Awarenss will monitor and quiet our thoughts.  When we are
able to be quite detached from forms, we have reached nirvana. It is just a liberationg from suffering, both body and mind.
    Nothing else.  It is a state still can be further enhanced
    through the next stage.

    After we reached nirvana, we could then help everyone around us
    to be awakened and liberated, through our wisdom, which is a
    direct connection with the universe without egoic notions.  This
    is a stage of working in the mud to gain the wisdom and life
    force.  At this stage we gradually learn also how to heal the
    body and mind of others and in turn further enhances our nirvana.

    The more sentient beings we connect through our hearts, the
    higher the Buddhahood we reach.
    In short, the Awakened One is accomplished through Awaken
    Oneself.  Awaken Others, then Perfect the Act of Awakening. This
    is a common Buddhist statement.
    I must add however, all Buddhist sutra said, we must surpass the
    Three Karmic Hindrances, our body, mind, and spirit.  Without a
    chi oriented practice, we could take much much longer to surpass
    just the first karmic hindrance of our physical body.  Surpassing
    our physical body does not mean detachment from the real physical
    discomfort of our body, but rather truly heal and rejuvenate our
    body to reach perfect health.

    If your body has the same kind of illness after one year of
    meditation, then your technique needs to be changed.

    JMJM
    Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
    http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com <http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com/>
    http://www.heartchan.org <http://www.heartchan.org/>

    On 11/26/2010 8:02 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>
    wrote:


    Anthony,

    I’ll repeat again that it is my understanding that the Mahayana’s
    vow is to not enter Nirvana before all other sentient beings are
    saved – not to postpone enlightenment until all other beings are
    saved.

    You are basically equating Nirvana with enlightenment. Is that
    what you mean? Do you think these two terms describe the same
    experience?

    …Bill!

    From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
    [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>]
    On Behalf Of Anthony Wu
    Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 7:47 PM
    To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
    Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon
    book

    Bill,

    'First enlightenment, then help others' is Theravada philosophy.
    It is to some extent in conflict with mahayana's 'first save all
    beings, then enlightenment (nirvana)'. As you agree, the latter
    is unfeasible in this world. I can only explain it in terms of
    intention.

    Anthony

    --- On Fri, 26/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>
    <billsm...@hhs1963.org
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>>
    wrote:

    From: billsm...@hhs1963.org
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>
    <billsm...@hhs1963.org
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=BillSmart%40HHS1963.org>>
    Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
    To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
    Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 6:22 PM

    ED,

    I believe Mahayana Buddhism teaches that you should not enter
    Nirvana nor break yourself off of the Wheel-of-Life (the
    continuous cycle of birth and rebirth) until all sentient beings
    are released from suffering. This is not the same as saying your
    should help others before helping yourself. Just like the oxygen
    mask example, you do have to get yourself in a position to help
    others before trying to help.

    I can’t give you a source but one quote I remember from somewhere
    is: ‘First attain enlightenment. Then instruct all beings.’

    …Bill!

    From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
    [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>]
    On Behalf Of Anthony Wu
    Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 4:16 AM
    To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
    Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

    ED,

    You say: Of what use is a dead bodhisattva to anyone?

    My suggestion: fly to Dharamsala and ask Dalai Lama. (It is an
    essential mahayana teaching that you should help others before
    helping yourself.)

    Anthony

    --- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=seacrofter001%40yahoo.com>>
    wrote:

    From: ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=seacrofter001%40yahoo.com>>
    Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
    To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>
    Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 9:46 PM

    Of what use is a dead bodhisattva to anyone?
    A mother who really cares for her child will put on her own
    oxygen mask first.
    On the other hand, "The life of an enlightened being is like the
    shadow of a bird on water."
    --ED

    --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>,
    Anthony Wu <wu...@...>
    <http://sg.mc761.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=wu...@...> wrote:
    >
    > Bill,
    >
    > You got it wrong. Bodhisatvas advise you put the oxygen mask on
    other
    people before you have it on yourself. >
    > You have not answer whether you don't think preventing turmoil
    is necessary.
    >
    > Anthony

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