JM,
 
For the time being, we ignore each other's statements. Will that satisfy you?
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 28/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nirvana and Buddhahood
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 28 November, 2010, 6:56 AM


  



Anthony,

Again, you are making judgment on a statement, which states "forget all 
statements, focus on your own experience".  Don't even trust my statement.  
Just ignore everything I say.  Words have no value.

Do you get it?  ...  :-) 
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/27/2010 2:12 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
  






JM,
 
When you analyse something to come to a conclusion, that is the result of your 
discriminating mind.
 
Anthony

--- On Sun, 28/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nirvana and Buddhahood
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 28 November, 2010, 1:14 AM


  

Hmm, sorry Anthony.  did not get it this time.  Which part is discriminating?

Do you mean self witness?
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/27/2010 6:59 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
  






JMJM,
 
You say: The key to enlightenment is to clearly detached from all "form, 
description, labels".  Self witness is the only truthful path.

Isn't that also discriminating.
 
You also say: I am not offended, just concerned.  Not only you, but everyone I 
come to contact.

That is why I say you are kindhearted.
 
Anthony

--- On Sat, 27/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nirvana and Buddhahood
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 27 November, 2010, 10:50 PM


  

Anthony,

There are indeed different practices. Neither am I saying my practice is the 
only way.

Yet, if you read your posts carefully, you are discriminating concept and terms 
instead of practices.  You are saying this is Buddhist and that is not 
Buddhist.  You are saying this is sentient being and that is not sentient 
being.  That's karma and that is not karma.

The key to enlightenment is to clearly detached from all "form, description, 
labels".  Self witness is the only truthful path.

What's I am trying to convey is not to focus on concept, but practice.  Any 
kind of practice, which I have failed to read from you post all these years.  
You seem to be standing on the sideline and having fun.

I am not offended, just concerned.  Not only you, but everyone I come to 
contact.

There is not very much time for all of us.  We need to cut through the 
delusions. Meaning put down all value we hold dearly and let our heart shine 
through.

JM  
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/27/2010 5:43 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
  

JMJM,
 
I am not saying you are wrong. If you are happy with your practice and feel 
good, that is great. However, please note:
 
There are different ways of practice, with very different results. 
 
It is too early for you to come to the conclusion that you have 'surpassed' 
your karma. There are no signs that you are able to see your previous and 
future lives, so you don't know how your karma has performed and will work out. 
Maybe you deny the existence of past and future lives, then you are like a 
materialist that doesn't recognize karma. That is possibly a contradiction.
 
There is no doubt 'chi' is an important factor. I believe so, though I don't 
know much about it.
 
>>From what you have posted so far, I already came to the conclusion that the 
>>heart chan benefits from both Buddhism and Taoism. But you cannot claim that 
>>all chan schools have the same way. The Chinese word chan is derived from 
>>Sanskrit jhana, and has developed from into many different schools, such as 
>>Tiantai, Linji (Rinzai), Caodong (Soto) etc. 
 
I am sorry if I am disturbing your busy schedule. I only hope that you are not 
like fanatic moslims or Christians who claim they are the 'only' correct way.

Don't be offended by what I have said. Please refer to the Diamond Sutra: the 
Buddha has said nothing, neither have I (grin).

Anthony

--- On Sat, 27/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Zen] Nirvana and Buddhahood
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 27 November, 2010, 7:42 AM

  

Dearest Anthony,

The following words are from my heart.  Please read them carefully.  I am 
getting busier everyday and having less and less time to post.

Chan benefits from the essence of Tao and Buddhism.  Chan practices with Tao 
principles for immortality and explains spirituality with Buddhism terms.  In 
the end both health and spirituality are formless and language less.  While I 
notice that you are still caught in categorization and analyzing with your head.

What I shared with you is the teaching from a living Buddha and a Chan Master.  
We have over half a million people benefited from his teaching and hundreds 
have already witnessed most of his journey.

I have witnessed the cells as sentient beings.  I have witnessed critical 
importance of chi to help us surpass our karmic physic hindrance.  I have 
witnessed a true journey.  Yet I must tell you that journey is just
journey.  Journey is indescribable with words.  Nirvana, enlightenment and 
Buddhahood are still just words to me.  They are not important because they are 
not absolute and they are not IT.

Nothing is more precious than the practice.  (Let us practice without our mind.)

Nothing is more important than self-witness.  (Let us not idolize words.)

And there is really nothing else.  (Just detach from everything including my 
post and follow your heart.)

JMJM
Head Teacher
Order of Buddha Heart
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/26/2010 2:17 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: 
  

JMJM,
 
Energizing cells is different from saving sentient beings. Union with unversal 
'chi' is a taoist idea, not buddhist. If you feel good about your approach, 
that is fine. But whether you can surpass your karmic hindrances is another 
matter. Moreover, I don't understand how Buddhahood and/or nirvana can be 
graded or classified.
 
Anthony
 

--- On Sat, 27/11/10, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <chan.j...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Zen] Nirvana and Buddhahood
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 27 November, 2010, 4:02 AM

  

Bill and Anthony,

I was taught to practice as follows for your reference.  It may not be the same 
as some of the teachings that you "understand".  But my witness so far is quite 
on par.

First we practice to clean up our body, through chi based cultivation. As we 
become healthier, all sentient beings within our body are saved, meaning every 
cell is energized. 

As we focus on these chakras and chi channels, we begin to be detached from all 
forms.  And our awareness is enhanced.  Our Inner Awarenss will monitor and 
quiet our thoughts.  When we are able to be quite detached from forms, we have 
reached nirvana.  It is just a liberationg from suffering, both body and mind. 
Nothing else.  It is a state still can be further enhanced through the next 
stage.  

After we reached nirvana, we could then help everyone around us to be awakened 
and liberated, through our wisdom, which is a direct connection with the 
universe without egoic notions.  This is a stage of working in the mud to gain 
the wisdom and life force.  At this stage we gradually learn also how to heal 
the body and mind of others and in turn further enhances our nirvana.

The more sentient beings we connect through our hearts, the higher the 
Buddhahood we reach.
In short, the Awakened One is accomplished through Awaken Oneself.  Awaken 
Others, then Perfect the Act of Awakening. This is a common Buddhist statement.
I must add however, all Buddhist sutra said, we must surpass the Three Karmic 
Hindrances, our body, mind, and spirit.  Without a chi oriented practice, we 
could take much much longer to surpass just the first karmic hindrance of our 
physical body.  Surpassing our physical body does not mean detachment from the 
real physical discomfort of our body, but rather truly heal and rejuvenate our 
body to reach perfect health.

If your body has the same kind of illness after one year of meditation, then 
your technique needs to be changed.

JMJM
Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
http://www.heartchan.org

On 11/26/2010 8:02 AM, billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: 
  

Anthony,

I’ll repeat again that it is my understanding that the Mahayana’s vow is to not 
enter Nirvana before all other sentient beings are saved – not to postpone 
enlightenment until all other beings are saved. 

You are basically equating Nirvana with enlightenment. Is that what you mean? 
Do you think these two terms describe the same experience?

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 7:47 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon
book

Bill,

'First enlightenment, then help others' is Theravada philosophy. It is to some 
extent in conflict with mahayana's 'first save all beings, then enlightenment 
(nirvana)'. As you agree, the latter is unfeasible in this world. I can only 
explain it in terms of intention.

Anthony

--- On Fri, 26/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org <billsm...@hhs1963.org>
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 26 November, 2010, 6:22 PM

ED,

I believe Mahayana Buddhism teaches that you should not enter Nirvana nor break 
yourself off of the Wheel-of-Life (the continuous cycle of birth and rebirth) 
until all sentient beings are released from suffering. This is not the same as 
saying your should help others before helping yourself. Just like the oxygen 
mask example, you do have to get yourself in a position to help others before 
trying to help.

I can’t give you a source but one quote I remember from somewhere is: ‘First 
attain enlightenment. Then instruct all beings.’

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Anthony Wu
Sent: Friday, November 26, 2010 4:16 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book

ED,

You say: Of what use is a dead bodhisattva to anyone?

My suggestion: fly to Dharamsala and ask Dalai Lama. (It is an essential 
mahayana teaching that you should help others before helping yourself.)

Anthony

--- On Thu, 25/11/10, ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Amazon book
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 25 November, 2010, 9:46 PM

Of what use is a dead bodhisattva to anyone?
A mother who really cares for her child will put on her own oxygen mask first.
On the other hand, "The life of an enlightened being is like the shadow of a 
bird on water."
--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wu...@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> You got it wrong. Bodhisatvas advise you put the oxygen mask on other
people before you have it on yourself. > 
> You have not answer whether you don't think preventing turmoil is necessary.
> 
> Anthony

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