Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest

Tue, 22 Feb 2011 00:51:20 -0800 














Kirk:
 
Thanks for your response which is giving me the opportunity to clarify better  
 
In my case I didn't look for emotional stimuli or anything like that in TNH or 
any other Teacher.  If you would know me face to face you will be seeing that 
I'm not the type of person who fails for gurus or thinks like that     My point 
was there was never a direct personal approach in which one can ask questions 
and interact with the teacher etc.  Personal interaction is natural in the 
process of a baby student learning. In the same way that is natural to have 
education and interaction with our blood parents.  And this is not to be 
dependent of emotional stimuli.  Once we grow, we don't need from our parents 
or our teacher as much.   
 
My personal views about TNH as the teacher who officially initiated and 
accepted me as one of his hundreds of students,  doesn't mean in any way a lack 
of appreciation for his person or dharma or anything like that.  It only means 
that without personal interaction there is not more teacher than myself making 
the best from the dharma received at a distance.  No one to correct one.  No 
one to ask.  No one to guide one.  But just myself and my own breathe all the 
way.  And this is why I say to K...that TNH is in the breathe. 
 
"Hey dear Thay (TNH), come down from your throne that I'm going to show you The 
Fight Club of the daily survival reality away from your cosy , monastic life!.  
But, I don't think you are up to that. Hehe...."  
 
Mayka
 
 
 
--- On Mon, 21/2/11, salik888 <[email protected]> wrote:


From: salik888 <[email protected]>
Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, 21 February, 2011, 19:59


  



Dear Mayka

I was taught this:

If the Master does not teach you to leave, then he cannot be your Master, and 
you are not a student (not you particularly, but anyone), for you are just 
seeking attention, emotional stimuli, etc . . . 

ZenDervish

K among the leavers

--- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@...> wrote:
>
> K...
>  
> Thank you for sharing your reflections.  I can't write English as well as 
> you do and would like to apologise before hand just in case I failed on 
> clarity and made use of broken English.  Trying my best in the process of 
> English communication though.
>  
> In reference with comments made about TNH.   I would like to say that I 
> consider him as one of my greatest Spiritual Fathers.  A father that sits 
> down on his own throne giving discourses and to whom some of his children 
> can't approach for real.  I didn't choose this gentleman to be my Master 
> Spiritual Father.  It just happened like that in the same way that it 
> happened to have my blood parents and you your blood parents who gave 
> us life.  Not you, not me  or anyone else had a choice in the selection of 
> our blood parents. And someone may say now: "But that is different as you 
> have a choice in the selection of a Spiritual Father".  To which I would be 
> responding:  " Yes, There is a choice when the choices are based in the 
> self form but there is no choice when they are found in the non self.  the 
> Master Spiritual Father was found first in the bottom in the bottom of my 
> heart and then the bottom
 of my heart found its reflection in the
> human form of TNH".  Whether TNH recognises or takes care of all his 
> children or not is a different matter. And yet, because there is no 
> separation between TNH and myself.  I can see what is in him and  he can 
> see what is in me too.  Saying this, I can tell you and all that at those 
> moments in which the self dissolves in the non self , one appears to others 
> as very sweet and naive.  But this doesn't mean that the person loose track 
> of the other reality of the self.  It's just that things are seen under the 
> perspective (if perspective can be called) of the non self.   He's very far 
> of being blind, well on the contrary, he's very awake.    He can be in a 
> room with hundreds of people on it and he does not loose detail.  In a quick 
> look he sees all his audience.  He's like me, like you and ever body else 
> when we all are truly awake.  
>  
> On the other hand, TNH has all kind of followers which includes all those 
> annoying sappy mess characters, fanatics, hypocritical, crazy people of all 
> kinds who only see him as his "Saviour" and all that.  They seem to be so 
> engaged in the form of the Master that are unable to accept or seeing 
> anything or anyone that is not in the form of the Master!. They don't know 
> yet that the Master is in the breathe!.  
>  
> Best
> Mayka
>  
>  
>  
>  
> --- On Mon, 21/2/11, Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@...>
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Monday, 21 February, 2011, 8:11
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony, Ed,  Steve, 
>   
> Reading your comments on this, and the complete article, I was reminded of a 
> difficult time in my life, and thought I'd offer a few further comments which 
> are partly cathartic for me, if I may.  As I read  Stuart Lachs' 
> article,  I was interested in his comments on self-interest, 
> authority-figures, and the choices and consequences of human behavior.  
>   
> He discusses the role of self-interest-- certainly a key principle in 
> economics , psychology, philosophy, and zen-- as they examine  or reflect 
> human behavior. As  I understand it,  self-interest is being free to do 
> what one wants, whereas  selfishness is the exclusive concern  with one's 
> own self.  "Game theory", (strategic human behavior), is often used in 
> organizational settings , to include zen centers.  From his discription, a 
> lot of this is going on  in the situations  he describes. Before you nod 
> off, bear with me;) 
>  
> His perspective seems a bit cynical from the start, though I  tend to agree 
> with many of his opening points such as the idea that many are seeking a 
> "parent" in the form of an all-knowing  Teacher.  I have said this before.. 
> There  seems to be so many people who are frightened to own their own 
> decisions and choices.  Perhaps they are  hedging possible consequences.  
> As if  one's happiness, safety or opportunity resides in someone else.
>  
> The "idealized" Teacher..idea has merit, though I have often thought of TNH 
> as one who embodies the stereotype of  the ideal  zen teacher. Soft-spoken 
> and mindful and a bit quirky and oddly funny and gentle-kind-of-thing.  Yet 
> he defended Baker, who clearly seemed corrupt.
>  
> Is that because TNH is too blindly trusting by always assuming the best in 
> others?  Perhaps.  But its kinda nice to know that such kind naivté can 
> exist, even though I don't accept it as wise.  
>  
> But lets examine the All-Knowing Teacher-as-the-Authority.  In the article, 
> some Teachers manipulate situations to maintain this role.  But remember 
> that there is no Teacher without students.  So, I would argue that students 
> bear an equal responsibility in this, especially  when things go wrong, 
> as they did here. Their neediness and own narcississtic needs seem to embue 
> the Teacher with such powers--and  with few questions asked. Common sense 
> and healthy skepticism can avoid  many of these problems.
>  
> I thought Mayka made a great observation.  Para-phrasing... Look within 
> first to realize your own experience and awareness. Relying solely on another 
> is not, by definition, a direct experience. But if reading or other means 
> can open a door to one's own deeper experience, that can be helpful.  
> So I  would call those an adjunct.
>  
> The flip side is that its hard for me to reconcile the changing faces of the 
> zen students here.  On the one hand, we are all one. Show compassion to 
> all.  But the minute they feel betrayed, which I argue they help create via 
> their own expectations, they now  feel victimized.  How about allowing 
> the teacher to be human? Hence--flawed like the rest of us.  It is the 
> double standards that set people up for disappointment and their own 
> suffering.  
>  
> I  have said before that  the $$ in spiritual venues can be a   a 
> powerful incentive -- and do corrupt the process.  But if you write the 
> check, be responsible for your own experience, or accept the consequences.I 
> disagree a bit with his condemnation of 'legitimizing" zen literature and 
> rituals.  Goes back to common sense.  They can be useful tools, but if 
> someone believes they are the holy-grail, they must own the outcome of that 
> naivté.
>  
> Personally, I'd love it if Kenneth Arrow put all this on an indifference 
> curve.  (Everyone can ignore that). I said this was part catharsis  for 
> me...
>  
>  In grad school, one of the articles that really influenced me back then 
> was:   
> 
> 
> 
> [PDF] 
> 
> Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology ... 
> File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
> by GS Becker - 1976 - Cited by 571 - Related articles
> Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology. Gary S. 
> Becker. Journal of Economic Literature, Vol. 14, No. 3 (Sep., 1976), 817-826. 
> ...
> www.towson.edu/~jpomy/behavioralecon/beckeraltruism76.pdf - Similar
> 
>  
>  
> Thanks,
>  
> Kristy
>  
> p.s.  Anthony, I still maintain that the marital discord results from  poor 
> communication from the beginning--but I am not defending his behavior.  I'm 
> simply suggesting  that all parties bear some responsibility..
>  
>  
>  
> Steve,
> 
>  
> Very interesting reading, though I did not go to all details.
>  
> I see that Richard Baker and Shimano are two sexual heros. Kapleau and 
> Shunryu Suzuki seem to be spared of that title. If I am wrong, please correct 
> it.
>  
> Of course, sex misconduct is one conspicuous quality. In this case, zen pales 
> against Tantric/Tibetan Buddhism, as the latter has a famous sex ritual, 
> which converts the impure into the pure by way of 'celibate sex'. What a 
> wonderful world. I can't wait to see zen followers converting to Tantrism in 
> large numbers, setting Chogyam Trungpa and Sogyal Rimpoche as examplary 
> models.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> 
> Anthony,
> Richard Baker and others might respond that that was an excellent opportunity 
> for his best friend to let go of his clinging, and learn how to better keep 
> his partner happy.
>  --ED
>  
> --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote:
> >
> > Kristy,
> >  
> > I agree a marital contract can be different types. It is fine if you have 
> > sex with more than one person, as long as you don't go beyond the 'terms 
> > and conditions'. As regards the teacher/disciple sexual relationships, our 
> > story on Richard Baker is a different one. He caused the anger of his best 
> > friend, because of his affair with the wife. That is where the 'misconduct' 
> > had harmful consequences.
> >  
> > Anthony
> 
> 
> 
> --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! <BillSmart@...>
> Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 12:06 AM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> ED,
> 
> I just want to make clear that I think when you are talking about this 
> article and about 'Zen' in general that you are referring to Zen Buddhism. 
> The reason I want to emphaize this is that I think your justificable 
> criticism and examples of hypocricy are the result of the Buddhist layers of 
> this, not zen itself.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Steve,
> > 
> > Zen, like most religious or spiritual paths and practices is riddled
> > with unstated or unexamined assumptions and ambiguities. The article
> > facilitates the task of identifying them.
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In [email protected], "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@> wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi ED. While I certainly did find the article interesting, I am
> > not likely to start chanting a mantra to it, like the Nichiren people
> > do with the Lotus Sutra.
> > Steve
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In [email protected]
> > </group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=pc1sfmtU7ytUgQpqSNt5PzAT8Ml25vylpEn9AMb6sj\
> > Eg1ngTZWNXJAqKzRDzQpY6fbQuOWriqDLMf7_xkg2y> , "ED" <seacrofter001@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Steve and All,
> > >
> > > This is an extremely informative and brilliantly insightful article,
> > > and should be studied and discussed sentence by sentence and paragraph
> > > by paragraph to help eradicate any illusions and delusions we might
> > hold
> > > concerning Zen teachings, Zen practice and Zen teachers.
> > >
> > > Should anyone choose a sentence, paragraph or section of the article
> > > that puzzles them, I would look forward to hearing members'
> > viewpoints,
> > > and contributing my own two bits to the discussion.
> > >
> > > Steve, thank you for bringing this article to our notice.
> > >
> > > --ED
> >
>




























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