Dear Mayka It was not directed at you personally, just the way this stuff works --
But the Dharma is transmitted from mind to mind and must be realized the the people themselves. Then the fifth Patriarch said, "Hui Neng, since anicent times the lives of those to whom this teaching has been transmitted have hung by a thread. If you stay here, someone will harm you. You must leave at once." The Platform Sutra It is shared, "mind to mind," and well, -- we leave consciously or unconsciously. --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kirk: >  > Thanks for your response which is giving me the opportunity to clarify > better  >  > In my case I didn't look for emotional stimuli or anything like that in TNH > or any other Teacher. If you would know me face to face you will be seeing > that I'm not the type of person who fails for gurus or thinks like > that     My point was there was never a direct personal approach in > which one can ask questions and interact with the teacher etc.  Personal > interaction is natural in the process of a baby student learning. In the > same way that is natural to have education and interaction with our > blood parents. And this is not to be dependent of emotional stimuli. > Once we grow, we don't need from our parents or our teacher as much.   >  > My personal views about TNH as the teacher who officially initiated and > accepted me as one of his hundreds of students,  doesn't mean in any way a > lack of appreciation for his person or dharma or anything like that. > It only means that without personal interaction there is not more > teacher than myself making the best from the dharma received at a > distance. No one to correct one. No one to ask.  No one to guide one. > But just myself and my own breathe all the way. And this is why I say to > K...that TNH is in the breathe. >  > "Hey dear Thay (TNH), come down from your throne that I'm going to show you > The Fight Club of the daily survival reality away from your cosy , monastic > life!. But, I don't think you are up to that. Hehe...." >  > Mayka >  >  >  > --- On Mon, 21/2/11, salik888 <kirkminor@...> wrote: > > > From: salik888 <kirkminor@...> > Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest > To: [email protected] > Date: Monday, 21 February, 2011, 19:59 > > >  > > > > Dear Mayka > > I was taught this: > > If the Master does not teach you to leave, then he cannot be your Master, and > you are not a student (not you particularly, but anyone), for you are just > seeking attention, emotional stimuli, etc . . . > > ZenDervish > > K among the leavers > > --- In [email protected], Maria Lopez <flordeloto@> wrote: > > > > K... > > à> > Thank you for sharing your reflections.àI can't write English as well > > as you do and would like to apologise before hand just in case I failed on > > clarityàand made use of broken English.àTrying my best in the > > process of English communication though. > > à> > In reference withàcomments made about TNH.àààI would like to > > say that I consider him asàone of my greatestàSpiritual Fathers.à> > A father that sits down on his own throne giving discourses and to > > whomàsome of hisàchildren can't approach for real.àI didn't > > choose this gentleman to be my Master Spiritual Father.ààIt just > > happened like thatàin the same way that it happened to have my blood > > parents and you your blood parents who gave usàlife.àNot you, not > > meàor anyone else had a choice in the selection of our blood parents. > > And someone may say now: "But that is different as you have a choice in the > > selection of a Spiritual Father".àTo which I would be responding:à" > > Yes, There is a choice when the choices are based in the selfàform but > > there is no choice when they are found in the non self. àthe Master > > Spiritual Father was found first in the bottom in the bottom of my heart > > and then the bottom > ofàmy heart found its reflection in the > > human form of TNH".àWhether TNH recognises or takes care of all his > > children or not is a different matter.àAnd yet, because there is no > > separation between TNH and myself. àI can see what is in him andàhe > > can see what is in me too.àSaying this, I can tell you and all that at > > those moments in which the self dissolves in the non self , one appears to > > others as very sweet and naive.ààBut this doesn't mean that the > > person loose track of the other reality of the self.àIt's just that > > things are seen under the perspective (if perspective can be called) of the > > non self.ààHe's very far of being blind, well on the contrary, he's > > very awake.ààHe can be in a room with hundreds of people on it and > > he does not loose detail.àIn a quick look he sees all his audience.à> > He's like me, like you and ever body else when we all are truly awake.à> > à> > On the other hand, TNH has all kind of followers which includes all those > > annoying sappy mess characters, fanatics, hypocritical, crazy people of all > > kinds who only see him as his "Saviour" and all that.àThey seem to be > > so engaged in the form of the Master that are unable to accept or seeing > > anything or anyone that is not in the form of the Master!.àThey don't > > know yet that the Master is in the breathe!.à> > à> > Best > > Mayka > > à> > à> > à> > à> > --- On Mon, 21/2/11, Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Monday, 21 February, 2011, 8:11 > > > > > > à> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, Ed,àSteve, > > à> > Reading your comments on this, and the complete article, I was reminded of > > a difficult time in my life, and thought I'd offer a few further comments > > which are partly cathartic for me, if I may. àAs I readààStuart > > Lachs' article,àI wasàinterestedàin his comments on > > self-interest, authority-figures, and the choices and consequences of human > > behavior.à> > à> > He discusses the role of self-interest-- certainly a key principle in > > economics , psychology, philosophy, and zen-- as they examineàor > > reflect human behavior.àAsàI understand it,ààself-interest is > > being free to do what one wants, whereasàselfishness is the exclusive > > concernàwith one's own self.à"Game theory", (strategic human > > behavior),àis often used in organizational settings ,àto > > includeàzen centers.àFrom his discription, a lot of this is going > > onàin the situationsàhe describes. Before you nod off, bear with > > me;) > > à> > His perspective seems a bit cynical from the start, though Iàtend to > > agree with many of his opening points such as the idea that many are > > seeking a "parent" in the form of an all-knowing àTeacher.àI have > > said this before.. Thereàseems to beàso many people who are > > frightened to own their own decisions and choices.àPerhaps they areà> > hedging possible consequences.àAs ifàone's happiness, safety or > > opportunityàresides in someone else. > > à> > The "idealized" Teacher..idea has merit, thoughàI have often thought of > > TNH as one who embodies the stereotype ofàthe idealàzen teacher. > > Soft-spoken and mindful and a bit quirky and oddly funny and > > gentle-kind-of-thing.àYet he defendedàBaker, who clearly seemed > > corrupt. > > à> > Is that because TNH is too blindly trustingàby always assuming the > > bestàin others?àPerhaps.àBut its kinda nice to know that such > > kind naivté can exist, even though I don't accept it as wise.à> > à> > But lets examine the All-Knowing Teacher-as-the-Authority.àIn the > > article, some Teachers manipulate situations to maintain this role.àBut > > remember that there is no Teacher without students.àSo, I would argue > > that students bear an equal responsibility in this, especiallyàwhen > > things go wrong, asàthey didàhere. Their neediness and own > > narcississtic needs seem to embue the Teacher with such powers--and > > àwith few questions asked. Common sense and healthy skepticism can > > avoidàmany of these problems. > > à> > Iàthought Mayka made a great observation.àPara-phrasing... Look > > within first to realize your own experience and awareness. Relying solely > > on another is not, by definition, a direct experience.àBut if reading or > > other means can open a door to one's own deeper experience, that can be > > helpful.àSoàIàwould call thoseàan adjunct. > > à> > The flip side is that its hard for me to reconcile the changing faces of > > the zen students here.àOn the one hand, we are all one. Show compassion > > to all.àBut the minute they feel betrayed, whichàI argue they help > > create via their own expectations, theyànowààfeel victimized.à> > How about allowing the teacher to be human? Hence--flawed like the rest of > > us.àIt is the double standards that set people up for disappointment > > and their own suffering.à> > à> > Iàhave said before thatàthe $$ in spiritual venues can be aàà> > a powerful incentive -- and do corrupt the process.àBut if you write > > the check, be responsible for your own experience, or accept the > > consequences.I disagree a bit with his condemnation of 'legitimizing" zen > > literature and rituals.àGoes back to common sense.àThey can be > > useful tools, but if someone believes they are the holy-grail, they must > > own the outcome of that naivté. > > à> > Personally, I'd love it if Kenneth Arrow put all this on an indifference > > curve.à(Everyone can ignore that). I said this was part catharsisà> > for me... > > à> > àIn grad school, one of the articlesàthat really influenced > > meàback then was:àà> > > > > > > > [PDF] > > > > Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology ... > > File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View > > by GS Becker - 1976 - Cited by 571 - Related articles > > Altruism, Egoism, and Genetic Fitness: Economics and Sociobiology. Gary S. > > Becker. Journal of Economic Literature, Vol. 14, No. 3 (Sep., 1976), > > 817-826. ... > > www.towson.edu/~jpomy/behavioralecon/beckeraltruism76.pdf - Similar > > > > à> > à> > Thanks, > > à> > Kristy > > à> > p.s.àAnthony, I still maintain that the marital discord results > > fromàpoor communication from the beginning--but I am not defending his > > behavior.àI'm simply suggestingàthat all parties bear some > > responsibility.. > > à> > à> > à> > Steve, > > > > à> > Very interesting reading, though I did not go to all details. > > à> > I see that Richard Baker and Shimano are two sexual heros. Kapleau and > > Shunryu Suzuki seem to be spared of that title. If I am wrong, please > > correct it. > > à> > Of course, sex misconduct is one conspicuous quality. In this case, zen > > pales against Tantric/Tibetan Buddhism, as the latter has a famous sex > > ritual, which converts the impure into the pure by way of 'celibate sex'. > > What a wonderful world. I can't wait to see zen followers converting to > > Tantrism in large numbers, setting Chogyam Trungpa and Sogyal Rimpoche as > > examplary models. > > à> > Anthony > > > > > > Anthony, > > Richard Baker and others might respond that that was an excellent > > opportunity for his best friend to let go of his clinging, and learn > > howàtoàbetter keep his partner happy. > > à--ED > > à> > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Kristy, > > >àà> > > I agree a marital contract can be different types. It is fine if you have > > > sex with more than one person, as long as you don't go beyond the 'terms > > > and conditions'. As regards the teacher/disciple sexual relationships, > > > our story on Richard Baker is a different one. He caused the anger of his > > > best friend, because of his affair with the wife. That is where the > > > 'misconduct' had harmful consequences. > > >àà> > > Anthony > > > > > > > > --- On Mon, 2/21/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: An Article of Interest > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Monday, February 21, 2011, 12:06 AM > > > > > > à> > > > ED, > > > > I just want to make clear that I think when you are talking about this > > article and about 'Zen' in general that you are referring to Zen Buddhism. > > The reason I want to emphaize this is that I think your justificable > > criticism and examples of hypocricy are the result of the Buddhist layers > > of this, not zen itself. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Steve, > > > > > > Zen, like most religious or spiritual paths and practices is riddled > > > with unstated or unexamined assumptions and ambiguities. The article > > > facilitates the task of identifying them. > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], "SteveW" <eugnostos2000@> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi ED. While I certainly did find the article interesting, I am > > > not likely to start chanting a mantra to it, like the Nichiren people > > > do with the Lotus Sutra. > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected] > > > </group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=pc1sfmtU7ytUgQpqSNt5PzAT8Ml25vylpEn9AMb6sj\ > > > Eg1ngTZWNXJAqKzRDzQpY6fbQuOWriqDLMf7_xkg2y> , "ED" <seacrofter001@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hello Steve and All, > > > > > > > > This is an extremely informative and brilliantly insightful article, > > > > and should be studied and discussed sentence by sentence and paragraph > > > > by paragraph to help eradicate any illusions and delusions we might > > > hold > > > > concerning Zen teachings, Zen practice and Zen teachers. > > > > > > > > Should anyone choose a sentence, paragraph or section of the article > > > > that puzzles them, I would look forward to hearing members' > > > viewpoints, > > > > and contributing my own two bits to the discussion. > > > > > > > > Steve, thank you for bringing this article to our notice. > > > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
