Mike, Chris, Steve, et al... The jury is ALWAYS out on ALL things scientific. And even when the jury does finally come in and render a verdict there is always an appeal, and always old evidence to refute and new evidence to present.
I'm reminded of the role science plays in our society everytime I go shopping at the grocery store and see the label on generic products: THIS PRODUCT IS SUITABLE FOR EVERYDAY USE. It's on the top shelf within easy reach, comes in a plain package, inexpensive and with a little effort and seasoning will do the job most of the time - but don't ever mistake it for the real thing.... ...Bill! --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Chris, > > Would this be another way of saying that the jury is still out on matters of > the > quantum and macro systems? > > Mike > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: ChrisAustinLane <chris@...> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Sent: Mon, 4 April, 2011 2:51:40 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better a Roulette > > > Current systems of quantum mechanics are deterministic but do not determine > what > happens, but determine probability distributions. > > The collapse of these distributions into the macro world is not currently > understood, but it seems to have something to do with the interactions > between > small systems and the whole mass of reality. > > Thanks, > Chris Austin-Lane > Sent from a cell phone > > On Apr 3, 2011, at 2:01, mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > > Steve, > > > >I'm not so sure that science has proven false the idea that all phenomena > >are > >strictly determined. I think the jury is still out on that one. It's true > >that > >what happens in the micro, quantum world is random and unpredictable, but > >not so > >in the macro-universe. Determinism seems to play a major role in life. Take > >a > >look at environmental determinism. The cultural life of mountain people, > >being > >shaped by the mountains, is different from the culture of fishing villages, > >being shaped by close proximity to the sea. Culture itself plays a key role > >in > >determining the social and psychological life of an individual. Likewise, > >being > >6ft 2 and 200lbs it is highly unlikely I'll ever be a horse jockey. Also, > >isn't > >it one of the core tenents of Zen/emptiness that there is no object or > >phenomena > >that is self-created and independent - everything is interdependent? > >Speaking > >for myself, I have no fixed position on these questions. I do believe, > >however, > >there is a difference in determinism and self-determinism (as opposed to > >predestination) and we do make choices (freewill) that can influence the > >future. > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: SteveW <eugnostos2000@...> > >To: [email protected] > >Sent: Sun, 3 April, 2011 13:21:34 > >Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better a Roulette > > > > > > > > > >--- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > >> > >> Steve, > >> Ã > >> I ask you which one of the four you support. > >> Ã > >> '1' was missing. I put it back. > >> Ã > >> Anthony > >> > >Hi Anthony. In my opinion, reality is a mixture of chance and necessity. Any > >account of reality must take into account uncertainty and non-locality. > >These > >two facts have been scientifically established beyond a reasonable doubt, > >imo. > >This is why I don't endorse Advaita Vedanta. Advaita Vedanta asserts that > >the > >world is an unreal appearance superimposed upon the face of static Being. > >Advaita Vedanta believes in strict determinism. If you read Be As You Are by > >Ramana Maharshi's student David Godman you will see that Maharshi believed > >that > >all phenomena are strictly determined. Modern physics has proven him wrong. > >For > >a while, some hoped that David Bohm's deterministic hidden variables model > >might > >prove to be true, but few now accept it. As the physicist Paul Davies > >comments > >in his book The Mind of God, the new physics has driven the final nail in > >the > >coffin of strict determinism. > > > >Some shit just happens, for no reason that can be given. You know, Zen > >people > >don't actually give a philosophical explanation for existence, but the > >Non-Dual > >Hindu traditions do. IMO, in comparing Advaita Vedanta with Kashmir > >Shaivism, > >Kashmir Shaivism is actually more in accord with the facts. > > > >Steve > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
