--- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > ---------- > [Bill!] HOWEVER, having said all that, I would not recommend you to embark on > koan study on your own. ---------- > [siska] from the short time I have been in this forum, I learned that koan > study requires a teacher. I thought it was simply because it is impossible to > do it on our own since we'd need someone to give us the appropriate koans and > verify our answers. Now I think I need to ask instead of making my own > assumptions, why is it actually not recommended to do koan study without a > teacher? [Bill!-2] My statements prior to the one you reference above were only saying you COULD do them on your own. I just wanted to make sure you didn't think there was anything secretive or magical about them. The statement above is telling you I don't think you SHOULD try them on your own. The reasons for that are the same you've listed. > ---------- > [Bill!] If you have to practice zen entirely on your own I would recommend > you just do zazen - shikantaza (clear mind meditation). > ---------- > [siska] also from the short while I'm here, I concluded that zen's zazen is > quite similar to meditation practice that I've been doing for quite a while, > which is simply sit and be aware. But if you can post me some instructions, > I'd like to try and see if it suits me. [Bill! 2] Shikantaza (zazen) is exactly what you describe - simply sit and be aware. If you can do that already you don't need koan study. The purpose of koan study is to get you to shikantaza.
> ---------- > [Bill!] I am not a teacher. > ---------- > [siska] everyone is a teacher, in one way or another. And you have been a > great teacher to me. [Bill! 2] Let me put it a different way: you are not my student. > ...Bill! > -----Original Message----- > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 03:07:39 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse > > > Siska, > > The short answer to your questions is: yes, of course you can utilize > koans on your own. Buddha Guatama did by sitting under the bodhi tree. > There are many versions of this story/myth, but one I found online at > http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm > <http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm> is: > > "Still seeking a way to understand the meaning of life, Siddhartha set > out for Buddhagaya. Near a grove, he sat down under a huge Bodhi tree. > Silently he vowed, "Even if my flesh and blood were to dry up, leaving > only skin and bones, I will not leave this place until I find a way to > end all sorrow." He sat there for forty nine days. He was determined to > discover the source of all pain and suffering in the world." > > Buddha's koan might be stated as 'What is the meaning of life?', or > 'What is the source of all pain and sufferring?', or 'How can we bring > an end to all sorrow?'; and very importantly he worked on this with the > utmost determination, vowing not to quit until he either found the > answer or died. > > This is what koan practice is. > > Buddha had no special (supernatural) powers. If he could do it, so > could you. > > HOWEVER, having said all that, I would not recommend you to embark on > koan study on your own. If you have to practice zen entirely on your > own I would recommend you just do zazen - shikantaza (clear mind > meditation). If you'd like instructions on that I'll post them or post > links to them. > > I am not a teacher. JMJM is a Chan Teacher and I hope he responds as to > if/how someone could begin zen/Chan practice on their own. I'd also be > interested in his comments. > > ...Bill! > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > That whole process of first experiencing Buddha Nature (kensho) and > then integrating it into your life without being fooled (as I've > described above) is the purpose of Zen Buddhist koan study. > > [siska] I'd love to do koan study. It is not possible to do this > without a teacher, is it? > > > > Thanks for your response Bill, it was such a relief that you get what > I was trying to say. It is always difficult for me to put it into words. > > > > Ps: the red corvette sounds like a fun ride :-) > > > > siska > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 02:10:39 > > To: [email protected] > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse > > > > Siska, My comments are embedded below: > > > > > [Bill!] I don't really understand this statement well enough to > respond. Why do you qualify decisions with 'big', > > > [siska] what I meant by 'big decision' is decision that have > 'longer' (?) impact. Say, deciding to marry someone, or deciding to > leave everything behind and go forth. I suppose we can do this by > intuition, and perhaps we should. But sometimes I find that intuition is > not intuition, there is still very subtle framework behind what comes up > as intuition. > > [Bill! 2] I know what you mean and I of course do that also. BUT, > sometimes I think I might FIRST make the decision basen on impulse or > 'intuition' (or homones) and then LATER JUSTIFY it with logic. This > process can happen very, very quickly. Like deciding to buy a red > Corvette convertible because it will retain it's value. Ha! > > > > > > > > [Bill!] and why should they be handled differently than any other > decision? > > > [siska] I'd definitely be less concerned with this when it comes to > deciding what I should have for lunch today, although I suppose this is > dualism point of view? :-) > > [Bill! 2} Okay, that's a key. You're concerned with how they will > affect 'you' in the 'future'. Both 'you' and 'future' as I'm sure you > know are illusory - but again I must confess I do the same thing myself. > > > > > [Bill!] I'm not aware of any non-attachment 'attitude' that does not > come from awareness. Where would it come from? Unless by 'non-attachment > attitude' you just mean disinterst? > > > [siska] I did not mean disinterest. Now, this is a little difficult > for me to describe. > > > > > > The mind can be very tricky. Maybe, at one point, it experienced a > state where it was 'un-attached to anything' (not sure if this is the > right way of describing that state). When the mind is not in this state, > it adopts what it regards as being non-attached as an 'attitude'. But > because the mind is not actually in that state, choices and decisions > made are still based on a framework instead of real intuition. > > > > > [Bill! 2] I can again relate to this. I think our discriminating mind > quickly learns and adapts to this 'no-attachment' thing and soon begins > to present things to you as if there are no attachments - but there are. > They're just hidded a little better than they used to be. That whole > process of first experiencing Buddha Nature (kensho) and then > integrating it into your life without being fooled (as I've described > above) is the purpose of Zen Buddhist koan study. I'm also sure the > process is never complete. > > > > > Feels like too much thinking going on in my head :-p > > > > > [Bill! 2] Yeah, I know the feeling! > > > > ...Bill! > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
