I just wanted to make sure you didn't think there was anything secretive or magical about them. [siska] never think of koan as secretive or magical. Now that you mentioned it, I find it interesting that some people must have thought so.
[Bill! 2] Let me put it a different way: you are not my student [siska] I'm a student of anyone from whom I learn anything. But you may be talking about teacher-student relationship in a zen perspective, which I have not understood so far. I learned that there are lineage and some sort of establishment in zen when it comes to this, which I still cannot relate to. My current view is not to allow any authority, even in the form of zen teacher, to shape our beliefs, or perceptions, or points of view. Afterall, we've had enough of these to 'unload'. Learning can only come when we are free from all these and knowledge is not the result of this learning. Siska -----Original Message----- From: "Bill!" <[email protected]> Sender: [email protected] Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 16:19:14 To: <[email protected]> Reply-To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hi Bill, > > ---------- > [Bill!] HOWEVER, having said all that, I would not recommend you to embark on > koan study on your own. ---------- > [siska] from the short time I have been in this forum, I learned that koan > study requires a teacher. I thought it was simply because it is impossible to > do it on our own since we'd need someone to give us the appropriate koans and > verify our answers. Now I think I need to ask instead of making my own > assumptions, why is it actually not recommended to do koan study without a > teacher? [Bill!-2] My statements prior to the one you reference above were only saying you COULD do them on your own. I just wanted to make sure you didn't think there was anything secretive or magical about them. The statement above is telling you I don't think you SHOULD try them on your own. The reasons for that are the same you've listed. > ---------- > [Bill!] If you have to practice zen entirely on your own I would recommend > you just do zazen - shikantaza (clear mind meditation). > ---------- > [siska] also from the short while I'm here, I concluded that zen's zazen is > quite similar to meditation practice that I've been doing for quite a while, > which is simply sit and be aware. But if you can post me some instructions, > I'd like to try and see if it suits me. [Bill! 2] Shikantaza (zazen) is exactly what you describe - simply sit and be aware. If you can do that already you don't need koan study. The purpose of koan study is to get you to shikantaza. > ---------- > [Bill!] I am not a teacher. > ---------- > [siska] everyone is a teacher, in one way or another. And you have been a > great teacher to me. [Bill! 2] Let me put it a different way: you are not my student. > ...Bill! > -----Original Message----- > From: "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 03:07:39 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse > > > Siska, > > The short answer to your questions is: yes, of course you can utilize > koans on your own. Buddha Guatama did by sitting under the bodhi tree. > There are many versions of this story/myth, but one I found online at > http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm > <http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm> is: > > "Still seeking a way to understand the meaning of life, Siddhartha set > out for Buddhagaya. Near a grove, he sat down under a huge Bodhi tree. > Silently he vowed, "Even if my flesh and blood were to dry up, leaving > only skin and bones, I will not leave this place until I find a way to > end all sorrow." He sat there for forty nine days. He was determined to > discover the source of all pain and suffering in the world." > > Buddha's koan might be stated as 'What is the meaning of life?', or > 'What is the source of all pain and sufferring?', or 'How can we bring > an end to all sorrow?'; and very importantly he worked on this with the > utmost determination, vowing not to quit until he either found the > answer or died. > > This is what koan practice is. > > Buddha had no special (supernatural) powers. If he could do it, so > could you. > > HOWEVER, having said all that, I would not recommend you to embark on > koan study on your own. If you have to practice zen entirely on your > own I would recommend you just do zazen - shikantaza (clear mind > meditation). If you'd like instructions on that I'll post them or post > links to them. > > I am not a teacher. JMJM is a Chan Teacher and I hope he responds as to > if/how someone could begin zen/Chan practice on their own. I'd also be > interested in his comments. > > ...Bill! > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > Hi Bill, > > > > That whole process of first experiencing Buddha Nature (kensho) and > then integrating it into your life without being fooled (as I've > described above) is the purpose of Zen Buddhist koan study. > > [siska] I'd love to do koan study. It is not possible to do this > without a teacher, is it? > > > > Thanks for your response Bill, it was such a relief that you get what > I was trying to say. It is always difficult for me to put it into words. > > > > Ps: the red corvette sounds like a fun ride :-) > > > > siska > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Bill!" BillSmart@ > > Sender: [email protected] > > Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 02:10:39 > > To: [email protected] > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse > > > > Siska, My comments are embedded below: > > > > > [Bill!] I don't really understand this statement well enough to > respond. Why do you qualify decisions with 'big', > > > [siska] what I meant by 'big decision' is decision that have > 'longer' (?) impact. Say, deciding to marry someone, or deciding to > leave everything behind and go forth. I suppose we can do this by > intuition, and perhaps we should. But sometimes I find that intuition is > not intuition, there is still very subtle framework behind what comes up > as intuition. > > [Bill! 2] I know what you mean and I of course do that also. BUT, > sometimes I think I might FIRST make the decision basen on impulse or > 'intuition' (or homones) and then LATER JUSTIFY it with logic. This > process can happen very, very quickly. Like deciding to buy a red > Corvette convertible because it will retain it's value. Ha! > > > > > > > > [Bill!] and why should they be handled differently than any other > decision? > > > [siska] I'd definitely be less concerned with this when it comes to > deciding what I should have for lunch today, although I suppose this is > dualism point of view? :-) > > [Bill! 2} Okay, that's a key. You're concerned with how they will > affect 'you' in the 'future'. Both 'you' and 'future' as I'm sure you > know are illusory - but again I must confess I do the same thing myself. > > > > > [Bill!] I'm not aware of any non-attachment 'attitude' that does not > come from awareness. Where would it come from? Unless by 'non-attachment > attitude' you just mean disinterst? > > > [siska] I did not mean disinterest. Now, this is a little difficult > for me to describe. > > > > > > The mind can be very tricky. Maybe, at one point, it experienced a > state where it was 'un-attached to anything' (not sure if this is the > right way of describing that state). When the mind is not in this state, > it adopts what it regards as being non-attached as an 'attitude'. But > because the mind is not actually in that state, choices and decisions > made are still based on a framework instead of real intuition. > > > > > [Bill! 2] I can again relate to this. I think our discriminating mind > quickly learns and adapts to this 'no-attachment' thing and soon begins > to present things to you as if there are no attachments - but there are. > They're just hidded a little better than they used to be. That whole > process of first experiencing Buddha Nature (kensho) and then > integrating it into your life without being fooled (as I've described > above) is the purpose of Zen Buddhist koan study. I'm also sure the > process is never complete. > > > > > Feels like too much thinking going on in my head :-p > > > > > [Bill! 2] Yeah, I know the feeling! > > > > ...Bill! > > >
