JM, You say, 'you are studying the Zen with your conscious mind'. Now you have started to use 'mind', instead of 'conscious heart'. As long as we have not become a Buddha, we need to use words. Your teacher uses a lot of words, as did Sakyamuni. Words should not lead to confusion. What is the Chinese word for 'mind'? If you take offense, you don't have to answer, and I apologize in advance. anthony
--- On Sun, 17/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> Subject: [Zen] Attachment to dharma To: [email protected] Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 2:05 PM Dear Anthony, You are so wrong. So attached to dharma. 『法相』。 I am sorry. I don't like to comment how you think. But as Sodaiho Sensei suggested, sometimes we need to talk like a blade. So here it goes..... Terminology is describing the practice, but not the practice itself. Terminology is describing the experience, but not the experience itself. All formed practice is not the practice. Diamond sutra said, "when see form as no form, then you see Buddha". Words are form, Anthony. I use heart because all we teach is a practice. And this practice begins with the heart. At the end of the practice, the heart is gone, only a certain synchronization remain. There is no heart, no mind, no nothing, no label, no form, only chi, electricity and lights. We call that the realm of ultimate truth. It is our way of teaching the practice. Unless you practice this way, you will not witness these experiences. In other words, as said in all the sutra, words are for our convenience only and they are not absolute. I was repeated remind by my teacher, "Please do not take notes. Do not memorize my words." Now I am asking you to do the same. Because someday, I may just use mind, when I am awakened to it. :-) What is your experience about conscious mind and beginner's mind. Not definition from someone else, but your personal experience. If you do not have one than you are studying the Zen with your conscious mind. Or to be blunt, you are attached to dharma. All these notions of yours are the rising of your conscious mind attached to absolute dharma. That is our teaching. Sorry, that's really Buddha's teaching, if I understand it correctly. Please do not read my words. They are external to you. The answer to all of your comments is within you. My words are meaningless unless you can sync to it with your heart. My words are just one of many ways to reach enlightenment. By no means they are the only way. If you don't like our way, please find your own way. However, if you are interested to learn how we Sit Chan, I will be happy to send you a book free of charge. Okay? All these time you utilized your valuable time to discuss with me about the accuracy of translations. I appreciate your good will. Words are however relative and context driven in the teaching that I have absorbed. Please don't be trapped by definitions of other people. Only trust your own witness. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/16/2011 9:01 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, The terminology has nothing to do with what we practice. One more question: how do you translate 'mind' into Chinese? Anthony --- On Sun, 17/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: [email protected] Date: Sunday, 17 April, 2011, 8:26 AM Hi Anthony, Thank you for your suggestion. When one day you practice the same way as I do, having similar experience, then it's the time for us to continue this subject. Okay? With respect, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/16/2011 4:37 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Your teacher has a profound mind. But I disagree with your translation. In modern English, 'heart' is used to refer to the physical organ, as well as the thought associated with emotions and feelings. So to say he teaches you about the heart is not to give him enough respect. Yishi xin is conscious mind. Ben xin is original mind, or maybe the beginner's mind. Anthony --- On Sat, 16/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: [email protected] Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 9:55 PM Hi Anthony， Actually he never used the "mind" word. He always say we need to tune down the 『意識 心』 and let the 『本 心』 shine through. Or translated literally into English, [original heart] and [conscious heart]. Let me know if you have more question. JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/16/2011 2:35 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, I believe all mental functions you mention can be included in the 'mind', but 'chi' is not there. So roughly I think your 'heart' is 'mind' plus 'chi'. You have not answered my question: what does your teacher say in Chinese when he refers to 'heart' and 'mind'? Anthony --- On Sat, 16/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: [email protected] Date: Saturday, 16 April, 2011, 6:32 AM Somewhat Yes, Anthony. To be exact to our teaching, the Heart Chakra, is what I usually refer to as the location of the "heart", which is not the organic heart, nor is just an energy point. It is just the center of the energy point. The Heart Chakra however is not the "heart" that I refer to either. The Heart that I refer to is the collective feeling, sensing, wisdom, energy, joy, sadness, etc. etc. our entire being, physiological, mental and spiritual combined, unified, integrated into one, yet it is invisible and formless. Let me ask you this, does the "mind" IYO, includes all of this or not? I could be wrong, but I understand that the mind does not include all this. For instance, the Heart that I refer to definitely includes energy, or chi and emotions. Does the mind include that? If not, then heart is the term communicates my experience more accurately. Well? JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/15/2011 2:45 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, Without the heart pumping blood to the brain. The brain is dead.' Equally correct is 'without a living brain, the heart can only pump blood for a zombie, or for another person it is transplanted into.' Since you pay attention to chakras, I suspect your 'heart' has to do with the heart chakra, which Tantra considers an important center. Is it right? Anthony --- On Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: [email protected] Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 9:50 PM Yes, Anthony, no problem. The heart includes the mind. But the mind does not contain the heart. As Daniel said, heart is the "grand central station". Forget the Chinese definition, just feel it. :-) JM. Or, perhaps, think in physiological term. Without the heart pumping blood to the brain. The brain is dead. Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/15/2011 6:05 AM, Anthony Wu wrote: JMJM, Don't think I am making trouble for you. I am just curious. On your part, you have not 'conquered your terminology' either, because you keep enhancing the 'heart' and disparaging the 'mind'. I am wondering what your teacher says in Chinese referring to 'heart' and 'mind'. As far as I can see from my limited knowledge, both are referred to in Chinese by 'xin'. In general, they are the same, but sometimes they may mean different things. That is why I keep asking. My question is not about terminology, but you say you have different experiences with regard to the mind and the heart. Can you elaborate? Anthony --- On Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: [email protected] Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 7:53 AM Hi Anthony, I understand that you trying to discuss from a logic or definition of words. I am not saying whether I am correct or wrong. At the beginning of my journey I am like you. I struggle with these terms as well. As I said, it took me six year to conquer my terminology. Actually, all my posts are from my experience. My experience like Daniel's youtube is center in the heart and not in the brain. It is a whole body experience. And this experience coincide more and more with my Teacher's teaching as time passes. Don't mean to confuse you. I also like to say, in my states, there is no mind and no heart, just chi, electricity and lights. The key point IMO, is that state of kensho, satori, or even just Jhana can not sustained without chi, which is labeled as vital energy by Daniel. Of course, my experience could also be labeled as maya by Bill. :-) It is not important what I say or experience. It is only important what you experience. As you well know, Buddha said clearly in Diamond sutra that He said NO dharma. Best, JM Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/14/2011 4:10 PM, Anthony Wu wrote: JM, What is 'mind'? What is 'heart'? What is the difference between 'mind' and 'heart'? Anthony --- On Fri, 15/4/11, Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> wrote: From: Jue Miao Jing Ming - 覺妙精明 <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Three Dimensions of Release To: [email protected] Date: Friday, 15 April, 2011, 3:36 AM Wow, Thank you ED. I have watched the first one. HuangDi Neijing said it very clearly for 2,000 years, "Our Shen, or inner divine, requires the support of Qi or Chi." Personally, having a high tech BG, it took me 6 years to wake up to the fact that our Teaching is not about our mind. It is about our entire being. And at the center of it, is our heart. That's my witness. Now there is someone else too. Thank you again, ED. Lovely day today. :-) JM BTW, I was just informed that our version of Diamond Sutra is on youtube with English subtitle. http://www.youtube.com/joycedaolian#p/u/4/ROkmtB1fB8I Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com http://www.heartchan.org On 4/14/2011 10:25 AM, ED wrote: Mike, two more tapes by Empty_Grace. I experience this guy as knowing what he is talking about. JM, he has good things to say about the Heart. --ED The Three Dimensions of Release http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejQsIFDrb4M&NR=1 Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-4Vw54Dabw&feature=related Part 2
