Bill!, Thanks for the support! Actually, I'm not about to become a Theravada monk anytime soon, it's just that going back to the Buddha's actual teaching has helped my 'Zen/zen' a thousand-fold. Sometimes I feel Zen, as taught these days, is pretty much reminiscent of a cow standing in a field chewing cud and waiting to be zapped with Enlightenment. Vipassana just gets down to (painful!) business and gives tangible results (the relative is as important as the absolute..). I recommend it whole-heartedly! ; )
Mike ________________________________ From: Bill! <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011, 13:36 Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism Mike, Thanks for the additional information. I hope your Theravada practices works out well for you. It just doesn't sound appealing to me. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Hi Bill!, > > Again, I think you're idea of what 'Insight' means is way off. If I explain > to a child that putting their hand in a flame will hurt like the time they > fell over and bruised their knee, then yes, we're working in the realm of > purely conceptual thinking (such as telling people they're already > Enlightened...). If, however, that child were to put its hand on the > hot-plate, it'll experience the pain in a very real way, and will have a very > real understanding(insight) born out of the action and its consequences. > Vipassana is not about a "thirst for knowledge" or "knowledge-seeking" -it's > about that real understanding (insight) born out of real experience. The > nyanas are just the recording of those experiences and are signposts along > the way - you know nothing if you just learn them by rote. BTW, this is a > very different 'know nothing' compared to Zen. > > > Mike > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011, 12:28 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > >  > Mike, > > IMO...Knowledge consists of concepts and relationships between those > concepts. The origin for the concepts do not make any difference. The > concepts could be based on real experience, experience by proxy or surrogate, > revelation or delusion. The concepts formed from allthese are illusory. > > In the zen teaching story below the 'friend' who's knocking at your door is > maya. It's used to help the student quiese the dicriminating mind that's > like a methadrine-junkie that just cannot abide being still even for one > second. This state is referred to in historical zen literature as 'monkey > mind'. It's contantly on the move and flits aimlessly from place to place, > never stopping. > > I meant the 'friend' in the story below to stand for anything that can divert > your attention and focus from Buddha Mind. As you know maya can come in any > form, and many, maybe all, of the forms are very seductive and alluring to > your discriminating mind. One of the most seductive is the illusion of > 'knowledge', the illusion of 'insight', the illusion that you have just > acquired (or been given) something important, something of cosmic importance. > Now you finally 'understand', or at least are beginning to understand. > > IMO I think your statement below, "...I think you're too easily dismissing > something you know very little about (IMO)" is incorrect. I do know a lot > about the thirst for knowledge. I am very attracted to knowledge. It does > have a strong pull for me and I know I am very susceptible to being mislead > by the desire for it. This in fact was the #1 hurdle I had to overcome (or > knock down) in order to realize Buddha Nature, and is certainly still the #1 > challenge in my continuing practice - that is how to maintain Buddha Nature > while also engaging my discriminating mind. > > As I repeat on this forum over and over, illusions are not the real barrier > to realizing Buddha Nature - and that includes the illusion of knowledge. > The barrier is attachments - attachments to your illusions including > attachement to knowledge. > > In closing I want to draw your attention to the caveat on my previous post of > "I would...advise anyone praticing zazen..." My comments were directed to > those wanting to practice zazen, not to those on any other kind of path > including Theravada's knowledge-seeking subjective meditation. > > Since this is a Zen Forum and not a Theravada Forum, I feel compelled to > point out fundamental diffrences between the two, and this Theravada belief > in, emphasis on and quest for 'knowledge' is a big, big difference. > > As usual this is all 'IMO'. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Bill!, > > >I would say all 'nyanas' as described below are illusory - maya, and > > advise anyone praticing zazen to 'just keep sitting'. I think the > > appropriate zen teaching analogy about how to deal with things like > > these is: > > > > >'If you are engaged in something very important and a friend knocks on > > your door you should answer the door, acknowledge your friend but tell > > him you're busy and ask him to come back later. Don't invite him in for > > tea.' > > > > > > The problem being that your friend might have even more important news than > > what you're doing at the time, that you'd ignore at your peril. To be > > honest, I think you're too easily dismissing something you know very little > > about (IMO). Nyanas/nanas are simply stages of knowledge about the > > body/mind you come to know thru experience in insight meditation > > (impermanence/no-self/suffering; cause and effect; etc). It's not just > > conceptual knowledge - it's knowledge that comes from the deepest > > experience of ultimate reality. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Saturday, 28 May 2011, 17:29 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > >  > > Siska, > > > > I don't really know what 'nyanas' are, but from what I've gleaned from > > reading the posts about them on this forum I'd say that Japanese Zen > > Buddhism does not teach these. That is not to say there aren't some > > strange and interesting things that happen on the way to realizing Buddha > > Nature, but there is not a categorization or heirarchy of steps you need > > (or might) go through to reach kensho/satori. > > > > I would say all 'nyanas' as described below are illusory - maya, and advise > > anyone praticing zazen to 'just keep sitting'. I think the appropriate zen > > teaching analogy about how to deal with things like these is: > > > > 'If you are engaged in something very important and a friend knocks on your > > door you should answer the door, acknowledge your friend but tell him > > you're busy and ask him to come back later. Don't invite him in for tea.' > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the > > > > nyanas in zen? > > > > > > >Not that I know of > > > > > > I see. > > > > > > Actually, that was what I was curious about. > > > > > > I've read a lot on nyanas years ago. In fact, in Mahasi tradition where I > > > started with meditation, the practice kind of evolve around nyanas, as > > > described in below article. But I am no longer interested in it. > > > > > > Btw, interestingly (and wisely, I think), in this same tradition, we are > > > also taught of kilesa (mental defilements) that may arise during > > > meditation. And one of the kilesas is nyana. > > > > > > siska > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: "ED" <seacrofter001@> > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 13:25:49 > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi siska, > > > > > > > > "Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages." > > > > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the > > > nyanas in zen? > > > > > > Not that I know of. > > > --ED PS: This interchange below taken from the Internet concerning > > > nyanas or nanas, may be of interest to you. "For Buddhists, Have > > > you ever heard about Vipassana nana sixteen step? Theravada Buddhism > > > regards Vipassana (insight meditation) as the highest dharmma practice > > > to purify mind and to liberate frome the suffering. However, the > > > phenomena of experience in practice seems to be so mysterious. I have > > > read Vipassana nana (insight meditation experience) which is classified > > > into sixteen steps but I need more details about this point. il 5, 2011 > > > at 10:46 am > > > <http://mysticbanana.com/for-buddhist-have-you-ever-heard-about-vipassan\ > > > a-nana-sixteen-steps-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-294828> > > > Joe B answers: > > > > > > I was a vipassan monk doing intensive Vipassana meditation for some > > > years in Asian monasteries. > > > > > > To get through the Nyanas you need to do intensive meditation and mostly > > > with a trained monk from that specific tradition. > > > > > > As one passes through the various Nyanas certain things may happen to > > > one's body. These can be all sorts of strange and unusual sensations. > > > One is generally advised to ignore the sensations and concentrate on the > > > object of meditation, which is often just to watch and see the breath > > > come and go and observe how it effects our body. > > > > > > Nyana's are level's of insights about life and how we get > > > through it. > > > > > > The first Nyana is called Nama Rupa ( body and mind) and if we really > > > understand that Nyana we will see that everything we experience, > > > emphasis on EVERYTHING, is first filtered through our minds. Normally we > > > are completelly unaware of this dynamic but if we can become aware of > > > it, it dramatically effects how we we experience everything. > > > > > > Once we stop intensive meditation the insights gained from Vipassand > > > commonly fade from our lives unless we do one of two things. 1. Unless > > > we maintain the practise. 2. Or unless we were very succesfull with our > > > Vipassana meditations and achieved the higher Nyana's. > > > > > > Most Westerners are not that successful though, as we are just either to > > > angry or neurotic etc. > > > > > > One generally has to seek out Vipassana teachers to get proper guidance. > > > Google is great for this!! > > > > > > Also a big part of Vipassana practise is to do everything mega slowly > > > and observe what happens second by second e.g. when walking lightly > > > concentrate on one's feet. When eating, concentrate on sensations in > > > the mouth. When brushing one's teeth actually concentrate on the > > > sensations in the mouth etc. > > > > > > Do everything slowly and mindfully, that's the basis of Vipassan > > > practise. > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > PS. Not all Theravada think Vipassana is the highest way, it seems > > > Buddha did not practise Vipassana but rather Samatha meditation which > > > leads to the 8 Jhana mind states called Divine Homes. > > > > > > It seems Vipassana became a popular method of meditation after a Sri > > > Lanka monk called BuhhhaGosa ( BG) wrote his commentary on Buddhism. > > > > > > BG wrote an instruction manuel on meditation (VisudhiMaggha) and from > > > that various forms of meditation arose. > > > > > > It seem BG was actually a Vedic scholar and included lots of ancient > > > Hindu practises into his commentary." > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > > > > "Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages." > > > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the > > > nyanas in zen? > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike and siska, See below. --ED > > > > > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul> > > > > > > "Buddhist parallels > > > > > > In Buddhist vipassana meditation, the practitioner passes through the > > > "Sixteen Stages of Insight" (nanas) towards Awakening. Steps five to ten > > > are the "Knowledges of Suffering" (dukkha nanas): > > > > > > * Knowledge of Dissolution (bhanga nana) > > > * Knowledge of Fearfulness (bhaya nana) > > > * Knowledge of Misery (adinava nana) > > > * Knowledge of Disgust (nibbida nana) > > > * Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muncitukamayata nana) > > > * Knowledge of Re-observation (patisankha nana) > > > > > > Western Buddhist meditators and teachers regularly compare this > > > experience to the Dark Night, for example Jack Engler[6] > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul#cite_note-5> : > > > > > > The 16th century Christian contemplative, St. John of the Cross, called > > > this phase "the dark night of the soul" for the same reason: the night > > > is dark because it is overwhelmingly clear that neither God nor the soul > > > nor the self as we knew them are any longer to be found. There is > > > instinctive recoil and withdrawal: nothing seems sufficiently worth > > > doing or caring about without them. > > > > > > These parallel experiences across faiths have led to speculation that > > > the Dark Night is a common spiritual or mystical state or stage which is > > > independent of the specific belief system. The Buddhist author Daniel > > > Ingram, who also invokes St. John, uses the term "maps" for the sequence > > > of mental states: > > > > > > The Christian maps, the Sufi maps, the Buddhist maps of the Tibetans and > > > the Theravada, and the maps of the Khabbalists and Hindus are all > > > remarkably consistent in their fundamentals. > > > (ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Â¦) These maps, > > > Buddhist or otherwise, are talking about something inherent in how our > > > minds progress in fundamental wisdom that has little to do with any > > > tradition and lots to do with the mysteries of the human mind and body. > > > > > > Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi ED, > > > > > > > > A couple of points. First, I think Siska was referring to the nanas > > > (or nyanas) which are a bit different from the jhanas. Jhanas are states > > > of absorption that one experiences as a result of concentrating > > > (samatha) on an object of meditation (usually the breath). Nanas are > > > (16) stages of insight (vipassana) gained when we look inside and become > > > acutely aware of our sensate world. For example, by focusing our > > > attention on bodily pain we can come to realise its impermanence > > > > > > > > and thus the 3 Characters of Existence (this is the 3rd stage of the > > > nanas - the first 2 are: 1) body and mind and 2) cause and effect). The > > > jhanas alone won't give you wisdom, only vipassana will, but they're > > > useful for giving one the state of mind to go deeper into vipassana. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > >
