An oldie, but a goodie! (The joke - not Bill..).
________________________________ From: Bill! <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011, 18:49 Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism Mooooo! --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Bill!, > > More cud for the cows to chew ; ) > > Mike > > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011, 14:01 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > >  > Mike, > > Theravada is Buddha's original teaching? I'll bet you already know I think > Buddha's original teaching is just holding up a flower at Vulture Peak. > > No pain necessary...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Bill!, > > > > Thanks for the support! Actually, I'm not about to become a Theravada monk > > anytime soon, it's just that going back to the Buddha's actual teaching has > > helped my 'Zen/zen' a thousand-fold. Sometimes I feel Zen, as taught these > > days, is pretty much reminiscent of a cow standing in a field chewing cud > > and waiting to be zapped with Enlightenment. Vipassana just gets down to > > (painful!) business and gives tangible results (the relative is as > > important as the absolute..). I recommend it whole-heartedly! ; ) > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011, 13:36 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > >  > > Mike, > > > > Thanks for the additional information. > > > > I hope your Theravada practices works out well for you. > > > > It just doesn't sound appealing to me. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Bill!, > > > > > > Again, I think you're idea of what 'Insight' means is way off. If I > > > explain to a child that putting their hand in a flame will hurt like the > > > time they fell over and bruised their knee, then yes, we're working in > > > the realm of purely conceptual thinking (such as telling people they're > > > already Enlightened...). If, however, that child were to put its hand on > > > the hot-plate, it'll experience the pain in a very real way, and will > > > have a very real understanding(insight) born out of the action and its > > > consequences. Vipassana is not about a "thirst for knowledge" or > > > "knowledge-seeking" -it's about that real understanding (insight) born > > > out of real experience. The nyanas are just the recording of those > > > experiences and are signposts along the way - you know nothing if you > > > just learn them by rote. BTW, this is a very different 'know nothing' > > > compared to Zen. > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Monday, 30 May 2011, 12:28 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > > > > >  > > > Mike, > > > > > > IMO...Knowledge consists of concepts and relationships between those > > > concepts. The origin for the concepts do not make any difference. The > > > concepts could be based on real experience, experience by proxy or > > > surrogate, revelation or delusion. The concepts formed from allthese are > > > illusory. > > > > > > In the zen teaching story below the 'friend' who's knocking at your door > > > is maya. It's used to help the student quiese the dicriminating mind > > > that's like a methadrine-junkie that just cannot abide being still even > > > for one second. This state is referred to in historical zen literature > > > as 'monkey mind'. It's contantly on the move and flits aimlessly from > > > place to place, never stopping. > > > > > > I meant the 'friend' in the story below to stand for anything that can > > > divert your attention and focus from Buddha Mind. As you know maya can > > > come in any form, and many, maybe all, of the forms are very seductive > > > and alluring to your discriminating mind. One of the most seductive is > > > the illusion of 'knowledge', the illusion of 'insight', the illusion that > > > you have just acquired (or been given) something important, something of > > > cosmic importance. Now you finally 'understand', or at least are > > > beginning to understand. > > > > > > IMO I think your statement below, "...I think you're too easily > > > dismissing something you know very little about (IMO)" is incorrect. I > > > do know a lot about the thirst for knowledge. I am very attracted to > > > knowledge. It does have a strong pull for me and I know I am very > > > susceptible to being mislead by the desire for it. This in fact was the > > > #1 hurdle I had to overcome (or knock down) in order to realize Buddha > > > Nature, and is certainly still the #1 challenge in my continuing practice > > > - that is how to maintain Buddha Nature while also engaging my > > > discriminating mind. > > > > > > As I repeat on this forum over and over, illusions are not the real > > > barrier to realizing Buddha Nature - and that includes the illusion of > > > knowledge. The barrier is attachments - attachments to your illusions > > > including attachement to knowledge. > > > > > > In closing I want to draw your attention to the caveat on my previous > > > post of "I would...advise anyone praticing zazen..." My comments were > > > directed to those wanting to practice zazen, not to those on any other > > > kind of path including Theravada's knowledge-seeking subjective > > > meditation. > > > > > > Since this is a Zen Forum and not a Theravada Forum, I feel compelled to > > > point out fundamental diffrences between the two, and this Theravada > > > belief in, emphasis on and quest for 'knowledge' is a big, big difference. > > > > > > As usual this is all 'IMO'. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill!, > > > > >I would say all 'nyanas' as described below are illusory - maya, and > > > > advise anyone praticing zazen to 'just keep sitting'. I think the > > > > appropriate zen teaching analogy about how to deal with things like > > > > these is: > > > > > > > > >'If you are engaged in something very important and a friend knocks on > > > > your door you should answer the door, acknowledge your friend but tell > > > > him you're busy and ask him to come back later. Don't invite him in for > > > > tea.' > > > > > > > > > > > > The problem being that your friend might have even more important news > > > > than what you're doing at the time, that you'd ignore at your peril. To > > > > be honest, I think you're too easily dismissing something you know very > > > > little about (IMO). Nyanas/nanas are simply stages of knowledge about > > > > the body/mind you come to know thru experience in insight meditation > > > > (impermanence/no-self/suffering; cause and effect; etc). It's not just > > > > conceptual knowledge - it's knowledge that comes from the deepest > > > > experience of ultimate reality. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > Sent: Saturday, 28 May 2011, 17:29 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'‚ > > > > Siska, > > > > > > > > I don't really know what 'nyanas' are, but from what I've gleaned from > > > > reading the posts about them on this forum I'd say that Japanese Zen > > > > Buddhism does not teach these. That is not to say there aren't some > > > > strange and interesting things that happen on the way to realizing > > > > Buddha Nature, but there is not a categorization or heirarchy of steps > > > > you need (or might) go through to reach kensho/satori. > > > > > > > > I would say all 'nyanas' as described below are illusory - maya, and > > > > advise anyone praticing zazen to 'just keep sitting'. I think the > > > > appropriate zen teaching analogy about how to deal with things like > > > > these is: > > > > > > > > 'If you are engaged in something very important and a friend knocks on > > > > your door you should answer the door, acknowledge your friend but tell > > > > him you're busy and ask him to come back later. Don't invite him in > > > > for tea.' > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > > > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the > > > > > > nyanas in zen? > > > > > > > > > > >Not that I know of > > > > > > > > > > I see. > > > > > > > > > > Actually, that was what I was curious about. > > > > > > > > > > I've read a lot on nyanas years ago. In fact, in Mahasi tradition > > > > > where I started with meditation, the practice kind of evolve around > > > > > nyanas, as described in below article. But I am no longer interested > > > > > in it. > > > > > > > > > > Btw, interestingly (and wisely, I think), in this same tradition, we > > > > > are also taught of kilesa (mental defilements) that may arise during > > > > > meditation. And one of the kilesas is nyana. > > > > > > > > > > siska > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: "ED" <seacrofter001@> > > > > > Sender: [email protected] > > > > > Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 13:25:49 > > > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > > > Reply-To: [email protected] > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi siska, > > > > > > > > > > > > "Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages." > > > > > > > > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the > > > > > nyanas in zen? > > > > > > > > > > Not that I know of. > > > > > --ED PS: This interchange below taken from the Internet concerning > > > > > nyanas or nanas, may be of interest to you. "For Buddhists, Have > > > > > you ever heard about Vipassana nana sixteen step? Theravada Buddhism > > > > > regards Vipassana (insight meditation) as the highest dharmma practice > > > > > to purify mind and to liberate frome the suffering. However, the > > > > > phenomena of experience in practice seems to be so mysterious. I have > > > > > read Vipassana nana (insight meditation experience) which is > > > > > classified > > > > > into sixteen steps but I need more details about this point. il 5, > > > > > 2011 > > > > > at 10:46 am > > > > > <http://mysticbanana.com/for-buddhist-have-you-ever-heard-about-vipassan\ > > > > > a-nana-sixteen-steps-2.html/comment-page-1#comment-294828> > > > > > Joe B answers: > > > > > > > > > > I was a vipassan monk doing intensive Vipassana meditation for some > > > > > years in Asian monasteries. > > > > > > > > > > To get through the Nyanas you need to do intensive meditation and > > > > > mostly > > > > > with a trained monk from that specific tradition. > > > > > > > > > > As one passes through the various Nyanas certain things may happen to > > > > > one's body. These can be all sorts of strange and unusual sensations. > > > > > One is generally advised to ignore the sensations and concentrate on > > > > > the > > > > > object of meditation, which is often just to watch and see the breath > > > > > come and go and observe how it effects our body. > > > > > > > > > > Nyana's are level's of insights about life and how we get > > > > > through it. > > > > > > > > > > The first Nyana is called Nama Rupa ( body and mind) and if we really > > > > > understand that Nyana we will see that everything we experience, > > > > > emphasis on EVERYTHING, is first filtered through our minds. Normally > > > > > we > > > > > are completelly unaware of this dynamic but if we can become aware of > > > > > it, it dramatically effects how we we experience everything. > > > > > > > > > > Once we stop intensive meditation the insights gained from Vipassand > > > > > commonly fade from our lives unless we do one of two things. 1. Unless > > > > > we maintain the practise. 2. Or unless we were very succesfull with > > > > > our > > > > > Vipassana meditations and achieved the higher Nyana's. > > > > > > > > > > Most Westerners are not that successful though, as we are just either > > > > > to > > > > > angry or neurotic etc. > > > > > > > > > > One generally has to seek out Vipassana teachers to get proper > > > > > guidance. > > > > > Google is great for this!! > > > > > > > > > > Also a big part of Vipassana practise is to do everything mega slowly > > > > > and observe what happens second by second e.g. when walking lightly > > > > > concentrate on one's feet. When eating, concentrate on sensations in > > > > > the mouth. When brushing one's teeth actually concentrate on the > > > > > sensations in the mouth etc. > > > > > > > > > > Do everything slowly and mindfully, that's the basis of Vipassan > > > > > practise. > > > > > > > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > > > > > > > PS. Not all Theravada think Vipassana is the highest way, it seems > > > > > Buddha did not practise Vipassana but rather Samatha meditation which > > > > > leads to the 8 Jhana mind states called Divine Homes. > > > > > > > > > > It seems Vipassana became a popular method of meditation after a Sri > > > > > Lanka monk called BuhhhaGosa ( BG) wrote his commentary on Buddhism. > > > > > > > > > > BG wrote an instruction manuel on meditation (VisudhiMaggha) and from > > > > > that various forms of meditation arose. > > > > > > > > > > It seem BG was actually a Vedic scholar and included lots of ancient > > > > > Hindu practises into his commentary." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], siska_cen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Ed, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages." > > > > > > > > > > Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the > > > > > nyanas in zen? > > > > > > > > > > Siska > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Mike and siska, See below. --ED > > > > > > > > > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul > > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul> > > > > > > > > > > "Buddhist parallels > > > > > > > > > > In Buddhist vipassana meditation, the practitioner passes through the > > > > > "Sixteen Stages of Insight" (nanas) towards Awakening. Steps five to > > > > > ten > > > > > are the "Knowledges of Suffering" (dukkha nanas): > > > > > > > > > > * Knowledge of Dissolution (bhanga nana) > > > > > * Knowledge of Fearfulness (bhaya nana) > > > > > * Knowledge of Misery (adinava nana) > > > > > * Knowledge of Disgust (nibbida nana) > > > > > * Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muncitukamayata nana) > > > > > * Knowledge of Re-observation (patisankha nana) > > > > > > > > > > Western Buddhist meditators and teachers regularly compare this > > > > > experience to the Dark Night, for example Jack Engler[6] > > > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul#cite_note-5> : > > > > > > > > > > The 16th century Christian contemplative, St. John of the Cross, > > > > > called > > > > > this phase "the dark night of the soul" for the same reason: the night > > > > > is dark because it is overwhelmingly clear that neither God nor the > > > > > soul > > > > > nor the self as we knew them are any longer to be found. There is > > > > > instinctive recoil and withdrawal: nothing seems sufficiently worth > > > > > doing or caring about without them. > > > > > > > > > > These parallel experiences across faiths have led to speculation that > > > > > the Dark Night is a common spiritual or mystical state or stage which > > > > > is > > > > > independent of the specific belief system. The Buddhist author Daniel > > > > > Ingram, who also invokes St. John, uses the term "maps" for the > > > > > sequence > > > > > of mental states: > > > > > > > > > > The Christian maps, the Sufi maps, the Buddhist maps of the Tibetans > > > > > and > > > > > the Theravada, and the maps of the Khabbalists and Hindus are all > > > > > remarkably consistent in their fundamentals. > > > > > (ÃÆ'Æ'Æ'ÃÆ'‚¢ÃÆ'Æ'¢ÃÆ'¢â‚¬Å¡ÃÆ'‚¬ÃÆ'Æ'‚ÃÆ'‚¦) > > > > > These maps, > > > > > Buddhist or otherwise, are talking about something inherent in how our > > > > > minds progress in fundamental wisdom that has little to do with any > > > > > tradition and lots to do with the mysteries of the human mind and > > > > > body. > > > > > > > > > > Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi ED, > > > > > > > > > > > > A couple of points. First, I think Siska was referring to the nanas > > > > > (or nyanas) which are a bit different from the jhanas. Jhanas are > > > > > states > > > > > of absorption that one experiences as a result of concentrating > > > > > (samatha) on an object of meditation (usually the breath). Nanas are > > > > > (16) stages of insight (vipassana) gained when we look inside and > > > > > become > > > > > acutely aware of our sensate world. For example, by focusing our > > > > > attention on bodily pain we can come to realise its impermanence > > > > > > > > > > > > and thus the 3 Characters of Existence (this is the 3rd stage of the > > > > > nanas - the first 2 are: 1) body and mind and 2) cause and effect). > > > > > The > > > > > jhanas alone won't give you wisdom, only vipassana will, but they're > > > > > useful for giving one the state of mind to go deeper into vipassana. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
