I agree with Edgar in the sense that zen action as seen by and described by a third party would probably be 'moral'; BUT zen action as done from Buddha Nature is not done BECAUSE the action is moral - it's just done. Just THIS! I call that 'amoral' since it is not in the scope of the dualistic concept of moral/immoral.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill and Anthony, > > I think Anthony's error is in thinking that morality comes from external > dictates that either are or are not complied with. That is after all the > usual definition. > > However Zen action comes directly and spontaneously from within in direct > reaction to reality rather than in accord with some external dictate. It is > my contention that Zen realization which reveals that all beings have Buddha > nature and are real and sentient conscious beings automatically results in > what would be conventionally described as 'moral' behavior. This is because > one recognizes one shares the same Buddha nature stuff with all other beings, > and in fact with the whole of reality itself. There is nothing else. With > this realization one naturally acts in what would be described as a moral way > but this morality comes from within as natural spontaneous Zen rather than > from external dogma. > > Edgar > > > > On Nov 17, 2011, at 8:46 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Anthony, > > > > You keep coming back to this - morality. It obviously bothers you so I will > > try to respond as fully as possible. > > > > First of all we need to agree on a definition of 'morality': > > 1. The quality of being in accord with standards of right or good conduct. > > 2. A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct. > > 3. Virtuous conduct. > > (Source: www.thefreedictionary.com) > > > > If this defintion is not satisfactory to you please suggest another. In the > > interium I'll assume this definiton is okay. > > > > So 'morality' is tightely coupled to the dualistic concept of right/wrong. > > Further more it assumes there is a 'standard' or perhaps even an 'absolute' > > against which actions can be judged to determine if they are moral or > > immoral. > > > > Buddha Nature doesn't work this way. It harbors no dualistic concepts. It > > adheres to no standards. It is Just THIS! That means the circumstances and > > your actions (or inaction) are all one. There is no separation, no dividing > > them up into categories like: me, child, pain, comfort, assist - or me, > > other, water, danger, rescue. It is all Just THIS! > > > > Now I'm not sure exactly what your question is asking. > > - If you're asking 'can zen be intentionally practiced immorally?', then my > > answer is 'no'. > > - If you're asking 'can zen be intentionally practiced morally?', then my > > answer is 'no'. > > - If you're asking 'can zen practice be judged by someone else as moral or > > immoral?', then my answer is 'yes'. > > > > And although you didn't ask, if you did ask 'can zen be practiced > > intentionally?', my answer is 'no'. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > >  > > > It is due to a lack of challenges. The following two stories from China > > > serve the purpose: > > >  > > > A Tale of 18 Passers By > > > A toddler was run over by a van in a small lane of the fast growing town > > > of Foshan. She was left lying on the street for an hour, during which > > > time 18 pedestrians and cyclists passed by. Some of them looked at the > > > scene and quickly turned the attention to another direction. The others > > > just went by without seemingly noticing anything, until an old woman > > > trash collector arrived and helped the kid to a hospital. The child later > > > died owing to wounds and losing too much blood. > > >  > > > A Foreign Tourist Saves a Local Woman > > > In a scenic West Lake in Hangzhou, a woman fell into the water and was > > > struggling. Some people were seen on the shore, but what they did was > > > either taking pictures or just standing by. None of them even called > > > emergency or police. A kindhearted lady across the hemisphere from > > > Uruguay noticed what happened and quickly jumped into water to save the > > > woman. > > >  > > > The absence of morality is apparent in both cases. Can zen be practiced > > > in the same way? > > >  > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Thursday, 17 November 2011 10:20 AM > > > Subject: [Zen] What's Up? > > > > > > > > >  > > > I haven't seen any posts for several days now. What's everybody doing? > > > Zazen? Occupy @MyCity? Golf? > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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