Siska, I don't think there is a reason behind the action in the classical sense. In other words there is not a 'you' (self) deciding (perhaps by using logic) what actions could be taken, and then ranking them (judging) as 'good', 'better', 'best', and selecting the one that seems the most approriate to achieve some 'goal' you have or 'outcome' you want to produce.
That I'm sure is not the process. I still come back to 'volition' as being legitimate because both you and I could be at the same place in the same circumstance and both manifesting Buddha Nature, but take different actions. It's like a koan. There is not one 'right' response to a koan. That means to me there is 'volition' of some kind applied in the responses. Anyway, I don't think about things like this a lot - but these are my thoughts on this topic at this time. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hi Bill, Edgar, > > I must have mis-understood Edgar then. > > I would not call 'volition' at the presence of buddha nature as 'purposeful > action'. I agree with Bill that it would not involve a decision making > process. With purpose, there would still be reason behind the action. I don't > think there is. > > Siska > -----Original Message----- > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> > Sender: [email protected] > Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 07:55:41 > To: <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Zen and Buddhism > > Bill and Siska, > > Perhaps there is still 'purposeful action' is a better descriptor than > 'volition'? > > And yes, generally accurate representations of what I said... > > Edgar > > > > On Nov 22, 2011, at 3:09 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Siska, > > > > My comments are imbedded below: > > > > [Siska} ...When someone tells lies, and we perceive it as 'bad', then this > > perception is illusory. But when a thought of telling lies is bad, then it > > is just a thought on itself and it is just it, not illusory. I was > > wondering whether with pure awareness, this type of thoughts (mental > > objects) can still be there. I rather think they can. > > [Bill!] In my opinion all thoughts are illusory, but I'm an extremist on > > this point. As Edgar says I think the key is no so much whether this or > > that is illusory, but whether you form attachments to it. > > > > [Siska] On volition, my question is then, does it mean that with pure > > awareness one acts without volition or with untainted volition? > > [Bill!] Volition is a tricky term. Normal usage of 'volition' would imply > > 'self', something that makes a decsion. When Buddha Nature is manifest > > there is no conscious decision-making, but I still beleive there is > > volition. I don't know why, or at least I can't explain it very well. I > > just don't usually think about these things this way. When Buddha Nature is > > manifest there is just 'doing', not so much 'deciding what to do' as we > > usually ascribe to 'volition'. > > > > [Siska] The way I understand it, Edgar was not saying the same thing. His > > description of not attached to attachment was something like: objects > > arise, being noted and let go. (Edgar, I apologise in advance if I quoted > > you wrongly). > > > > > > My description below is: objects arise and awareness is not affected at > > > all, not noting, not letting go, no response. Arising objects will > > > disappear, sooner or later, whether you let go or not. It's impermanent. > > [Bill!] I'll let Edgar respond to this one, and maybe he already has, but I > > think you're both saying pretty much the same thing. When he says "being > > noted and let go" I think he means 'being noted and not forming an > > attachment'. It's not so much an active 'letting go' as a non-action of 'no > > attachment'. And that is very close to what you have said. That's my > > interpretation anyway. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
