There is understanding of, there is recognition in, and there is
realization as. Tripartite aspects of Unity (an apparent division
of/in/as mind)*
Words being equally as useful for conveying understanding as
misunderstanding, can only point to this.
Whether you see agreement or disagreement in such exchanges, you still
are seeing suchness.
Many understand this (aspects/forms), some recognize this (where/how
forms arise), few realize this (form/formless [manifest/un-manifest -
real/unreal] are not two).
In more(?) 'Zen" terms: Ordinary mind [understanding of] , [recognizing]
nature of mind, [realizing] Buddha/original mind.
All discussion is limited to ordinary mind, but with recognition mind is
not separate we may realize this presents no problem.
K
* - there are countelss examples, as mind creates and orients -
triangulates - via trinities - and trinities within trinites.
Dharma/Sangha/Buddha - Ordinary mind/As/ Buddha mind -
Father/Son/Holy-Ghost - Hot/Cold/Temperature, Long/Short/Distance,
Time/Space/Universe, Matter/Energy/States - etc...
Duality + Observer = trinity, a duality upon duality, a delusion of
illusion.
All of it as "real" or "unreal" as the duality of "you" decides it is.
Useful as you need it to be.
"Real" or "unreal" is a silly question.
Suchness.
On 4/7/2012 9:30 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
Bill,
That's nonsense. For starters I and you are PART of reality so if we
contain structure so does reality because we are part of reality.
Second where could it come from if it's only in humans and not the
rest of reality? Do you imagine that the human mind is so powerful
that it's the only thing in the universe that creates structure? It's
a completely nonsensical view...
Buddhism and Hinduism never claim there is no world of forms and that
forms are all in the mind. That's a basic misunderstanding. What they
both say is that the world of forms does exist but that all forms are
empty of self substances other than what they variously call Tao, Mu,
the void, and what I call ontological energy...
They may also say that forms originally emerged from the formless and
may eventually return to a formless state (i.e. back to completely
still ontological energy in which they arise) but nevertheless the
world of forms does currently exist....
The formless is like a completely still ocean of reality in which
ripples, waves, and currents can arise. The ripples, waves and
currents are the world of forms. They have no self substances other
than that of water or ontological energy in the case of reality.
Nevertheless because they have form they obey intrinsic rules because
these rules are part of the forms that arise. The forms that can arise
are determined by the nature of reality just as the structure of the
waves that arise in water are determined by the nature of water.
It's all very simply and crucial to proper understanding....
Edgar
On Apr 7, 2012, at 7:35 AM, Bill! wrote:
Edgar,
Structure is indeed the fundamental and defining characteristic of
the world of forms. _All_ structure comes from _you_, from your
dualistic, discriminating rational mind which also creates your
illusion of self. Structure doesn't exist/'out there' /somewhere and
you discover it. You invent it. You create it like you create a
fictional story. You can say, I guess, that even a fictional story
is real. It's a real story, but the fundamental nature of the story
is fictional, invented, created - and that's what I call illusion.
All structure is illusory.
_Seeing_ (experiencing) this - the fact that the world of forms
(structure) is illusory, _not understanding_ this, is IMO
the essence of zen.
...Bill!
