plato...the cave...merle
Real world is the illusion seen as illusion rather than reality.. I certainly agree with your comments below too... Edgar On May 25, 2012, at 6:56 PM, Merle Lester wrote: > > >edgar > then where is the real world????????? > > >and where is reality? > > > what amazes me is how adults have such pre-concieved minds states. >..that once they have made their minds up..it is set in concrete and very hard >to shift. >.you need a jack hammer to get through. >.and in many cases the concrete is rotten with "cancerous" growth of >bullshit, half truths, prejudices, and lack of insight. > > >.. going zen opens the mind..so one is fresh alert and prepared for the >unexpected... >just as a young child is before they are fed "how to think and feel"..through >the education system > happy "zenning"! > and long live zanism > cheers merle > > >>and don't actually exist out there in reality... > >Then again, Zen is very pragmatic and would say you'd best duck when an >'object' comes hurtling your way. This is why, after all, mountains really are >mountains... > >Mike > >--- On Sat, 26/5/12, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: > > >>From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> >>Subject: Re: [Zen] The Self Illusion >>To: [email protected], [email protected], >>[email protected], [email protected] >>Date: Saturday, 26 May, 2012, 2:38 >> >> >> >>ED, >> >> >>The self we are all familiar with is as you say a mental construct in our >>mind's simulation of reality. Actual sensory input comes into organisms in >>fragmented bits such as color, motion, shapes, etc. As the mind develops in >>infancy these sensory bits are gradually organized by the mind into larger >>more persistent constructs such as objects, one of which is the self. There >>is a lot of research by cognitive scientists on how and when this occurs in >>childhood but cognitive scientists assume mind just begins recognizing the >>objects that actually exist out there in reality. Buddhist on the other hand >>claims that the objects are all mental constructs and organizations of raw >>input from external reality and don't actually exist out there in reality... >> >> >>There is also a lot of information about how the concept of objects arises >>from developments in robotics. It turns out it is very very difficult to >>construct (robotics calls it identify) objects from raw sensory input.... For >>example most objects produce very very different sensory input depending on >>their orientation and distance from the eyes so it takes very sophisticated >>mental software to identify all those different perceptual views as the same >>object, especially against all sorts of different backgrounds... >> >> >>So direct experience consists solely of sensory input momentary in the >>present moment. The whole idea of persistent objects including the self is a >>mental construct and as Zen would say an illusion not actually present in the >>external (real) world. >> >> >>Edgar >> >> >> >> >> >> >>On May 25, 2012, at 10:29 AM, ED wrote: >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Excerpt: >>>"In what sense is the self an illusion? >>>For me, an illusion is a subjective experience that is not what it seems. >>>Illusions are experiences in the mind, but they are not out there in nature. >>>Rather, they are events generated by the brain. Most of us have an >>>experience of a self. I certainly have one, and I do not doubt that others >>>do as well – an autonomous individual with a coherent identity and sense of >>>free will. But that experience is an illusion – it does not exist >>>independently of the person having the experience, and it is certainly not >>>what it seems. That's not to say that the illusion is pointless. >>>Experiencing a self illusion may have tangible functional benefits in the >>>way we think and act, but that does not mean that it exists as an entity. >>>If the self is not what it seems, then what is it? >>>For most of us, the sense of our self is as an integrated individual >>>inhabiting a body. I think it is helpful to distinguish between the two ways >>>of thinking about the self that William James talked about. There is >>>conscious awareness of the present moment that he called the "I," but there >>>is also a self that reflects upon who we are in terms of our history, our >>>current activities and our future plans. James called this aspect of the >>>self, "me" which most of us would recognize as our personal identity—who we >>>think we are. However, I think that both the "I" and the "me" are actually >>>ever-changing narratives generated by our brain to provide a coherent >>>framework to organize the output of all the factors that contribute to our >>>thoughts and behaviors. >>>I think it helps to compare the experience of self to subjective contours – >>>illusions such as the Kanizsa patternwhere you see an invisible shape that >>>is really defined entirely by the surrounding context. People understand >>>that it is a trick of the mind but what they may not appreciate is that the >>>brain is actually generating the neural activation as if the illusory shape >>>was really there. In other words, the brain is hallucinating the experience. >>>There are now many studies revealing that illusions generate brain activity >>>as if they existed. They are not real but the brain treats them as if they >>>were. >>>Now that line of reasoning could be applied to all perception except that >>>not all perception is an illusion. There are real shapes out there in the >>>world and other physical regularities that generate reliable states in the >>>minds of others. The reason that the status of reality cannot be applied to >>>the self, is that it does not exist independently of my brain alone that is >>>having the experience. It may appear to have a consistency of regularity and >>>stability that makes it seem real, but those properties alone do not make it >>>so. >>>Similar ideas about the self can be found in Buddhism and the writings of >>>Hume and Spinoza. The difference is that there is now good psychological and >>>physiological evidence to support these ideas that I cover in the book in a >>>way that I hope is accessible for the general reader." >>>Source: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-illusion-of-the-self2 >>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > >
