Mike, There were eagles there in the past. That's well attested. I seem to recall they were being reintroduced to Scotland...
Edgar On May 26, 2012, at 8:37 AM, mike brown wrote: > Edgar boyo, > > If you have Welsh ancestary then you have privileged genes for sure. Did you > know the Welsh for Mt Snowdon is Eryri - 'the place of eagles'? I'm not sure > if they disappeared because of human over-population or because, in fact, > they don't exist.... > > Mike > > > --- On Sat, 26/5/12, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Zen] The Self Illusion > To: [email protected] > Date: Saturday, 26 May, 2012, 22:14 > > > MIke, > > > No trespassing! My ancestor Owens were the original Princes of North Wales > and Snowdon is rightfully mine! > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On May 26, 2012, at 6:13 AM, mike brown wrote: > >> >> I'm going to climb Mt. Snowden in Wales next week. I hope it's still there - >> there's not much credit climbing a mountain that doesn't exist. >> >> Mike >> >> --- On Sat, 26/5/12, Merle Lester <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> From: Merle Lester <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Self Illusion >> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Date: Saturday, 26 May, 2012, 8:56 >> >> >> edgar >> then where is the real world????????? >> >> and where is reality? >> >> what amazes me is how adults have such pre-concieved minds states. >> ..that once they have made their minds up..it is set in concrete and very >> hard to shift. >> .you need a jack hammer to get through. >> .and in many cases the concrete is rotten with "cancerous" growth of >> bullshit, half truths, prejudices, and lack of insight. >> >> .. going zen opens the mind..so one is fresh alert and prepared for the >> unexpected... >> just as a young child is before they are fed "how to think and >> feel"..through the education system >> happy "zenning"! >> and long live zanism >> cheers merle >> >> >and don't actually exist out there in reality... >> >> Then again, Zen is very pragmatic and would say you'd best duck when an >> 'object' comes hurtling your way. This is why, after all, mountains really >> are mountains... >> >> Mike >> >> --- On Sat, 26/5/12, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Self Illusion >> To: [email protected], [email protected], >> [email protected], [email protected] >> Date: Saturday, 26 May, 2012, 2:38 >> >> >> ED, >> >> The self we are all familiar with is as you say a mental construct in our >> mind's simulation of reality. Actual sensory input comes into organisms in >> fragmented bits such as color, motion, shapes, etc. As the mind develops in >> infancy these sensory bits are gradually organized by the mind into larger >> more persistent constructs such as objects, one of which is the self. There >> is a lot of research by cognitive scientists on how and when this occurs in >> childhood but cognitive scientists assume mind just begins recognizing the >> objects that actually exist out there in reality. Buddhist on the other hand >> claims that the objects are all mental constructs and organizations of raw >> input from external reality and don't actually exist out there in reality... >> >> There is also a lot of information about how the concept of objects arises >> from developments in robotics. It turns out it is very very difficult to >> construct (robotics calls it identify) objects from raw sensory input.... >> For example most objects produce very very different sensory input depending >> on their orientation and distance from the eyes so it takes very >> sophisticated mental software to identify all those different perceptual >> views as the same object, especially against all sorts of different >> backgrounds... >> >> So direct experience consists solely of sensory input momentary in the >> present moment. The whole idea of persistent objects including the self is a >> mental construct and as Zen would say an illusion not actually present in >> the external (real) world. >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On May 25, 2012, at 10:29 AM, ED wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Excerpt: >>> "In what sense is the self an illusion? >>> For me, an illusion is a subjective experience that is not what it seems. >>> Illusions are experiences in the mind, but they are not out there in >>> nature. Rather, they are events generated by the brain. Most of us have an >>> experience of a self. I certainly have one, and I do not doubt that others >>> do as well – an autonomous individual with a coherent identity and sense of >>> free will. But that experience is an illusion – it does not exist >>> independently of the person having the experience, and it is certainly not >>> what it seems. That's not to say that the illusion is pointless. >>> Experiencing a self illusion may have tangible functional benefits in the >>> way we think and act, but that does not mean that it exists as an entity. >>> If the self is not what it seems, then what is it? >>> For most of us, the sense of our self is as an integrated individual >>> inhabiting a body. I think it is helpful to distinguish between the two >>> ways of thinking about the self that William James talked about. There is >>> conscious awareness of the present moment that he called the "I," but there >>> is also a self that reflects upon who we are in terms of our history, our >>> current activities and our future plans. James called this aspect of the >>> self, "me" which most of us would recognize as our personal identity—who we >>> think we are. However, I think that both the "I" and the "me" are actually >>> ever-changing narratives generated by our brain to provide a coherent >>> framework to organize the output of all the factors that contribute to our >>> thoughts and behaviors. >>> I think it helps to compare the experience of self to subjective contours – >>> illusions such as the Kanizsa pattern where you see an invisible shape that >>> is really defined entirely by the surrounding context. People understand >>> that it is a trick of the mind but what they may not appreciate is that the >>> brain is actually generating the neural activation as if the illusory shape >>> was really there. In other words, the brain is hallucinating the >>> experience. There are now many studies revealing that illusions generate >>> brain activity as if they existed. They are not real but the brain treats >>> them as if they were. >>> Now that line of reasoning could be applied to all perception except that >>> not all perception is an illusion. There are real shapes out there in the >>> world and other physical regularities that generate reliable states in the >>> minds of others. The reason that the status of reality cannot be applied to >>> the self, is that it does not exist independently of my brain alone that is >>> having the experience. It may appear to have a consistency of regularity >>> and stability that makes it seem real, but those properties alone do not >>> make it so. >>> Similar ideas about the self can be found in Buddhism and the writings of >>> Hume and Spinoza. The difference is that there is now good psychological >>> and physiological evidence to support these ideas that I cover in the book >>> in a way that I hope is accessible for the general reader." >>> Source: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-illusion-of-the-self2 >>> >>> >> >> >> > >
