You'd have to start by removing the usurper who calls himself the Prince of Wales! :-)
Edgar On May 26, 2012, at 10:06 AM, mike brown wrote: > PS. Is there anything we can do about making England non-existent? > > Mike > > --- On Sun, 27/5/12, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: mike brown <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Zen] The Self Illusion > To: [email protected] > Date: Sunday, 27 May, 2012, 0:05 > > > Edgar, > > Then I mightily relieved to find out that not just the eagles exist, but so > does Scotland ; ) > > Mike > > --- On Sat, 26/5/12, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: > > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Zen] The Self Illusion > To: [email protected] > Date: Saturday, 26 May, 2012, 23:46 > > > Mike, > > > There were eagles there in the past. That's well attested. I seem to recall > they were being reintroduced to Scotland... > > Edgar > > > > On May 26, 2012, at 8:37 AM, mike brown wrote: > >> >> Edgar boyo, >> >> If you have Welsh ancestary then you have privileged genes for sure. Did you >> know the Welsh for Mt Snowdon is Eryri - 'the place of eagles'? I'm not sure >> if they disappeared because of human over-population or because, in fact, >> they don't exist.... >> >> Mike >> >> >> --- On Sat, 26/5/12, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Self Illusion >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Saturday, 26 May, 2012, 22:14 >> >> >> MIke, >> >> >> No trespassing! My ancestor Owens were the original Princes of North Wales >> and Snowdon is rightfully mine! >> :-) >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On May 26, 2012, at 6:13 AM, mike brown wrote: >> >>> >>> I'm going to climb Mt. Snowden in Wales next week. I hope it's still there >>> - there's not much credit climbing a mountain that doesn't exist. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> --- On Sat, 26/5/12, Merle Lester <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> From: Merle Lester <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Self Illusion >>> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>> Date: Saturday, 26 May, 2012, 8:56 >>> >>> >>> edgar >>> then where is the real world????????? >>> >>> and where is reality? >>> >>> what amazes me is how adults have such pre-concieved minds states. >>> ..that once they have made their minds up..it is set in concrete and very >>> hard to shift. >>> .you need a jack hammer to get through. >>> .and in many cases the concrete is rotten with "cancerous" growth of >>> bullshit, half truths, prejudices, and lack of insight. >>> >>> .. going zen opens the mind..so one is fresh alert and prepared for the >>> unexpected... >>> just as a young child is before they are fed "how to think and >>> feel"..through the education system >>> happy "zenning"! >>> and long live zanism >>> cheers merle >>> >>> >and don't actually exist out there in reality... >>> >>> Then again, Zen is very pragmatic and would say you'd best duck when an >>> 'object' comes hurtling your way. This is why, after all, mountains really >>> are mountains... >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> --- On Sat, 26/5/12, Edgar Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Self Illusion >>> To: [email protected], [email protected], >>> [email protected], [email protected] >>> Date: Saturday, 26 May, 2012, 2:38 >>> >>> >>> ED, >>> >>> The self we are all familiar with is as you say a mental construct in our >>> mind's simulation of reality. Actual sensory input comes into organisms in >>> fragmented bits such as color, motion, shapes, etc. As the mind develops in >>> infancy these sensory bits are gradually organized by the mind into larger >>> more persistent constructs such as objects, one of which is the self. There >>> is a lot of research by cognitive scientists on how and when this occurs in >>> childhood but cognitive scientists assume mind just begins recognizing the >>> objects that actually exist out there in reality. Buddhist on the other >>> hand claims that the objects are all mental constructs and organizations of >>> raw input from external reality and don't actually exist out there in >>> reality... >>> >>> There is also a lot of information about how the concept of objects arises >>> from developments in robotics. It turns out it is very very difficult to >>> construct (robotics calls it identify) objects from raw sensory input.... >>> For example most objects produce very very different sensory input >>> depending on their orientation and distance from the eyes so it takes very >>> sophisticated mental software to identify all those different perceptual >>> views as the same object, especially against all sorts of different >>> backgrounds... >>> >>> So direct experience consists solely of sensory input momentary in the >>> present moment. The whole idea of persistent objects including the self is >>> a mental construct and as Zen would say an illusion not actually present in >>> the external (real) world. >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 25, 2012, at 10:29 AM, ED wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Excerpt: >>>> "In what sense is the self an illusion? >>>> For me, an illusion is a subjective experience that is not what it seems. >>>> Illusions are experiences in the mind, but they are not out there in >>>> nature. Rather, they are events generated by the brain. Most of us have an >>>> experience of a self. I certainly have one, and I do not doubt that others >>>> do as well – an autonomous individual with a coherent identity and sense >>>> of free will. But that experience is an illusion – it does not exist >>>> independently of the person having the experience, and it is certainly not >>>> what it seems. That's not to say that the illusion is pointless. >>>> Experiencing a self illusion may have tangible functional benefits in the >>>> way we think and act, but that does not mean that it exists as an entity. >>>> If the self is not what it seems, then what is it? >>>> For most of us, the sense of our self is as an integrated individual >>>> inhabiting a body. I think it is helpful to distinguish between the two >>>> ways of thinking about the self that William James talked about. There is >>>> conscious awareness of the present moment that he called the "I," but >>>> there is also a self that reflects upon who we are in terms of our >>>> history, our current activities and our future plans. James called this >>>> aspect of the self, "me" which most of us would recognize as our personal >>>> identity—who we think we are. However, I think that both the "I" and the >>>> "me" are actually ever-changing narratives generated by our brain to >>>> provide a coherent framework to organize the output of all the factors >>>> that contribute to our thoughts and behaviors. >>>> I think it helps to compare the experience of self to subjective contours >>>> – illusions such as the Kanizsa pattern where you see an invisible shape >>>> that is really defined entirely by the surrounding context. People >>>> understand that it is a trick of the mind but what they may not appreciate >>>> is that the brain is actually generating the neural activation as if the >>>> illusory shape was really there. In other words, the brain is >>>> hallucinating the experience. There are now many studies revealing that >>>> illusions generate brain activity as if they existed. They are not real >>>> but the brain treats them as if they were. >>>> Now that line of reasoning could be applied to all perception except that >>>> not all perception is an illusion. There are real shapes out there in the >>>> world and other physical regularities that generate reliable states in the >>>> minds of others. The reason that the status of reality cannot be applied >>>> to the self, is that it does not exist independently of my brain alone >>>> that is having the experience. It may appear to have a consistency of >>>> regularity and stability that makes it seem real, but those properties >>>> alone do not make it so. >>>> Similar ideas about the self can be found in Buddhism and the writings of >>>> Hume and Spinoza. The difference is that there is now good psychological >>>> and physiological evidence to support these ideas that I cover in the book >>>> in a way that I hope is accessible for the general reader." >>>> Source: http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-illusion-of-the-self2 >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > >
