Mike, You will have trouble finding a good forest in Thailand for meditation, because a large part of it is gone for industrialisation, the other part is occupied by Bill for his busy farm. However, you can always locate a quiet corner everywhere in the world. The 'spiritual' paths are so different nowadays that you can only choose one by chance, not by reasoning. Nevertheless, seriously I hope you will be a modern arahant. when you are, don't keep it secret. Anthony
________________________________ From: mike brown <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 8:19 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen Anthony, Yes, I'm beginning to see that early Buddhism and Zen Buddhism are more different that I first realised. Early Buddhism seems to provide a clear technique/path which involves more than just meditation i.e the Noble Eightfold Path. Things like Right Speech and Right Concentration are more than just questions of morality for the sake of morality, but lead to a state of mind (free from the 5 Hindrances) conducive to the kind of concentration needed for insight meditation. I can definitely see myself becoming a monastic in a Vipassana/Therevada monastery such as in the forest tradition in Thailand. Yes, I think all those traditions perfect the character (as do the Budo martial arts) as they help us to study the self. Mike ________________________________ From: Anthony Wu <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, 3 August 2012, 0:23 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen Mike, As D.T.Suzuki says, all living things develop, including Buddhism. So what Sakyamuni started developed all the way to Zen, which labels some old ways 'makyo' (devilish realm). That does not mean the old things are bad. For the same reason, traditional Buddhism and Tantra can also call Zen makyo. My question has two parts. The smaller one is about your 'heart chakra' which is typically a Tantra term, is it part of your vipassana? The bigger question is whether you are following the traditional Buddhist way of tracking different jhanas all the way to Arahantship and Buddhasahip. I really wich you success. IMO, all practices, including vipassana, zen, Hindu way of union with Brahama are good ones, as long as they don't stray into killing and looting. I would include Christian mysticism and Muslim Sufism as well. Anthony ________________________________ From: mike brown <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2012, 17:27 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen Anthony, Don't get me wrong, I love the insights and wisdom of the awakened Zen masters, but I now choose to follow the Vipassana path. Ultimately, of course, all these rafts will be discarded, but I'm still paddling. I think it's possible for anyone in a daily activity to accidently hit upon a jhanic state, like I did (the chances would be something like winning the lotto), but usually it's more conducive if they were concentrating intently on something (which is why it happens to Zen practioners who have no idea, or interest, in such a mind state). To the former person it would be labelled as a mystical experience. To the latter it would be mayko. If you are talking about insight meditation (Vipassana) per se, then a teacher would say to stay with the feeling in the heart region for a moment, observe what is happening, and then move away. Is the sensation pleasant? Is it a solid 'block' of sensation or is it made up of many different, more subtle, sensations? Is it fleeting? Does it make you want to attach to the sensation? Does it arise and pass like other sensations? etc. The insights are more important that than the experience itself. In metta (loving-kindness) meditation ,however, absolutely no problem to sit with the sensation of the Heart Chakra opening and sharing that with the world. There is a feeling of a vortex of energy in this area and I think that is recognised in Buddhism, hence the old dichotomy in the translation of shin - mind or heart? Mike ________________________________ From: Anthony Wu <[email protected]> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2012, 9:58 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen Mike, Do you think your 'mystic experience' is more important, or the vipassanan 'heart chakra' is (I may make a mistake to.link the chakra thing to vipassana? Which way are you practising now? Anthony ________________________________ From: Kristopher Grey <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, 2 August 2012, 2:46 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Chan and zen Thank you for sharing that Mike. KG On 7/31/2012 7:33 PM, mike brown wrote: >Joe, > > >Oh yes, talk about the 'moonlight' of Wisdom and the crystal-like purity of >objects is no artistic licence. I've taken the liberty of posting below an >account of a mystical experience I posted on another forum many years ago. I >have also posted on this forum (not so long ago) some of the experiences I've >had with my Heart Chakra on Vipassana retreats (If I find it I'll re-post, if >you'd like). I do this for your amusement only! (and please excuse the >unsophisticated descriptions I blurted out below...): > > >http://pub5.bravenet.com/guestbook/395054200/#bn-guestbook-1-1-395054200/prev/22 > > > >April 14th 2004 >02:18:37 AM >Please provide a nickname (required) >Mike >Give your experience a short title >No-Mind >How old were you when this happened? >36 >Are you male or female? >male >Please describe your experience >I had my first experience 3 years ago and I still find it difficult to put >into words. Impossible, actually. Also important to mention is the fact that >during the experience I had no religious beliefs or knowledge. However, since >the experience I have been practicing Zen Buddhism and I can know describe >some facets of the experience using Zen terminology (something I couldn't do >immediately after the experience). > >I was watching the evening news on t.v (it was about 7pm) when I heard a kind >of 'click' inside my head. Immediately, all the sound from the t.v seemed to >suck back into the t.v. This left everything in the room in a state of >crystal-like purity because along with the absence of sound there was also an >absence of 'labels' on the objects within my view. Labels, names, concepts, >abstractions, language, all had instantaneously vanished. Everything was in a >state of 'isness' or 'suchness'. It was as if the atmosphere in the room had >taken on a moon-like or crystal-like quality. > >As for me, it felt as though my head had been taken from my shoulders and I >WAS the room and the objects therein. Although I had never studied Zen >Buddhism up to this point I kept repeating to myself, "This is it! This is it! >No mind!". It also felt as though this was the most natural and real state to >be in and how foolish not to realise it before! I also really felt as though I >would be able to come back to this 'place' at will. I wish! This period of >discovery lasted about 10-15 minutes. > >What followed was a state of bliss and ecstasy. It began with a warm liquid >feeling running up and down my spine (very kundalini!) accompanied by an >adrenalin-like feeling of love. Very orgasmic without the sexual side. This >state seemed to be preceded by a feeling of amazing discovery - no less than >the meaning of life and the reason for religion. I also believe that my >breathing was suspended during this time. Then the most amazing feeling of >'oneness' occured when I looked out the window and saw a tree. It really felt >as though the tree was in on the whole episode! I couldn't stop saying, "Thank >you!". The tree shimered in a golden, violet and blue light although I know it >wasn't a hallucination. I was the tree and the tree was me. At this point >everything felt dark although my eyes were open and it wasn't dark in a lights >off kind of way. Also, I could feel my hands moving up into a benediction type >position. But here's the strange thing. I consciously brought myself out of this unbelievably beautiful state! At the time it felt like I needed to share the experience with someone, but also I think I wasn't ready to lose my sense of self. > >After I had come back to earth a bit I felt 2 things. One, that this was the >most holy experience anyone had ever had!! Or two, that this experience >somehow preceded a mental illness. The next day I scoured the library for >material and discovered 'mysticism'. That was a great relief - to discover >that lots of people have had similar experiences. For the sake of brevity, of >all the religions I researched Zen feels the most relevant FOR ME to pursue. I >have had many profound experiences since and definately feel like I am now on >a spiritual path. >
