Kris, >I understand your meaning, how this appears to function, what the intention and expectation is, but this itself seems to continually reform the trap from which it seeks release.
Not "reform", but refine. The sutras start with a conceptual understanding of emptiness and thru meditation we gradually refine our understanding until we have a direct experience of emptiness. Thus wisdom is undeniably a result of logical inference and analysis, but with liberation coming from direct experience when phenonema is deeply penetrated. Of course there is initially a sense of an I 'doing' the seeing into, but it is this very sense of a self that is 'doing the looking' that is ultimately seen for what is(n't). Remember that we're talking about instructions, techniques and teachings and not diving straight into ultimate truths. Not immediately, anyway. Are you suggesting that Zen practioners begin with a direct experience of emptiness? Zen begins with kensho/satori. Vipassana begins at the conceptual level and graduallyrefines understanding until direct experience. You begin where you're already at. Fine. Good for you. I'm enjoying the scenery to get where I'm already at. I bet I've seen better views ; ) Mike ________________________________ From: Kristopher Grey <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, 7 August 2012, 23:29 Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Guided Meditation with Joseph Goldstein - YouTube On 8/7/2012 11:52 AM, mike brown wrote: > ....the insight wisdom you get from the attention/mindfulness you give... I understand your meaning, how this appears to function, what the intention and expectation is, but this itself seems to continually reform the trap from which it seeks release. "Give" and "get" sound an awful lot like two of 'the three poisons'. The third of course being the notion of a giver/getter! Mara loves this sort of samsaric mindfulness - so full of intent and expectation - so self driven/self-sustaining/self-improving. Such 'insight wisdom', if a hard won attainment, is just a product of 'ordinary mind'. Such 'insight wisdom', if a choiceless/effortless realization of suchness, is also recognition of 'ordinary mind' as 'Buddha mind'. Nothing gained, as nothing lacks. Please, don't take my word for it. KG
