372 Joseph Goldstein Dharma Talks:
http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/?page=2 <http://www.dharmaseed.org/teacher/96/?page=2> --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > Joe, > > > Thanks for indulging me and doing such a good job of putting into words what understandably can't truly be expressed in words. Nice style, too. You've certainly given me lots to grapple with, so if I tend to wander, please employ your ox-herding skills to rein me in ; ) You will, I hope, appreciate that I'm not trying to argue that vipassana is better, or more effective, than Zen, or that my view is right and yours is wrong... ... ... It's a path that has been practiced for thousands of years and has seen many practioners liberated. If I want a pissing contest, I could just argue that the UK's 'Office' is better than the US' 'Office' (which it is, by the way). > > > There seems to be quite a few definite differences, yet one fundamental similarity, between Zen and vipassana. I'd like to tackle at least one aspect of this. The similarity need not be discussed - liberation being empty of emptiness, never mind sectarianism. It is the differences in the path to liberation that interests me. As you know, vipassana is the pali forinsight meditation and so obviously this is essential for liberating wisdom. We use an object of meditation to look into how the mind creates attachments: clinging or aversion. All phenomena are seen as impermanent, devoid of self, and ultimately unsatisfying resulting in suffering. When we see into these 3 characteristics of existence, we liberate ourselves from a self who suffers: the suffering doesn't cease - the self does. The method used that leads us to liberation seems to be more structured, and gradual, than in Zen, but it is this major difference that has pulled me into vipassana. I > breathe. I see that the breath arises and passes. I note that this produces an emotion or a thought. This feeling/thought, too, arises and passes. This sense of an 'I' who experiences these insights also arises and passes from moment to moment. How unsatisfying to try to attach to a solid, permanent 'I'! This 'I' is an illusion, empty. There is only non-self (maybe Descarte's meant, 'I think, therefore there are thoughts'??). And so on. Of course, the mind is not literally churning out thoughts like this every second - wouldn't want to be accused of 'monkey-mind', would we ; ) - it's much closer to intuition than that, although deduction/analysis does play a role. But it is also much more than just observing and letting all phenomena pass. > > > Of course, there are many more methods employed in vipassana including something very similar to shikantaza. There is of course the much misunderstood role of the jhanas. In fact, just so that I'm clear on this, the jhanas are not essential to liberation (although it can be argued that the suttas do suggest that they are), but they do support insight meditation by calming the mind and holding at bay the 5 Hindrances that, well, hinder meditation (restlessness, doubt, anger etc.). But it is the liberating wisdom from insight that frees us from the bondage of self and suffering. So, it just seems like there is a much clearer path to follow (but certainly no easier) in vipassana than in Zen. This suits some, but not others. I like what Kris said about Zen not relying on the sutras, but not abandoning them either. I'm grateful for the sutras. They not only show me how to meditate, but also tell me what to expect along the way (as well as some ecstatic > surprises), and deliver on that promise. Instead of a vague notion of compassion/morality in Zen (forgive me if that's not true for you, but even well established Zen teachers have said the same), vipassana/Buddhism, make it explicit in the form of the Noble Eightfold Path. There are many layers of interpretation of the NEP, from it being a description of a single moment in meditation - to the description of a Buddha. But it can also be interpreted fundamentally as a guide towards how to live life so as to be conducive to meditation (we all know how taking an oath on retreat helps calm our mind before we even sit on the cushion). That's where I'm at. If mindful of these (explicit) precepts, the basis for keeping the meditative mind can be kept alive every moment of the day, but especially for the concentration required for deeper samadhi and/or insight meditation. Hope you kept reading up to this point! > > Mike >
