Mike, As I say, We all have attachments but I'm not attached to my attachments. They arise and I let them pass without following them...
Edgar On Sep 13, 2012, at 9:56 AM, mike brown wrote: > Edgar, > > Yes, the dust is illusionary, but it still 'exists' and affects us in the > same way as desires/attachments etc do. This why I said, "I'm still largely a > prisoner of conditions, even though I intuitively know that these conditions > are illusionary". And so I continue to wipe, and if we're being truthful, so > do most of us here, I suspect. > > > Mike > > > > ________________________________ > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012, 13:32 > Subject: Re: [Zen] the real world and zen power > > > > Mike, > > This is a misunderstanding of Hui Neng's poem... > > It's not that the dust has nowhere to settle but that the dust itself is > DUSTLESS... > > Meaning that everything in reality is a manifestations of Buddha Nature, even > dust. > > Edgar > > > > > > On Sep 13, 2012, at 7:08 AM, mike brown wrote: > > >> >> >> Chris, >> >> >>> because this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is complete as >>> it is >> >> >> I often ask myself the same thing. Hui-eng's poem was accepted by his master >> because he spoke of there being no mirror to polish so there is no where for >> the dust to settle. Yet Buddha spoke about people having different amounts >> of dust in their eyes. It's not really an either/or argument (I don't want >> to end up as a fox for 500 rebirths!). One speaks of ultimate truth - the >> other a conventional truth. I'm still largely a prisoner of conditions, even >> though I intuitively know that these conditions are illusionary. But to >> "just drop them", as so many people here are want to say, is rather easier >> to say than actually do. So I keep polishing, because even though mirror >> may, or may not, exist - I know that the dust does. [insert ironic >> statements here ; )]. >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: ChrisAustinLane <[email protected]> >> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012, 0:38 >> Subject: Re: [Zen] the real world and zen power >> >> >> >> I must second this. I have saved an email from you Mike where in you ask >> some tormenter if they do not find the world a bit cleaner after a sesshin >> (part of the endless words on polishing vs. ceasing). I have not replied >> because this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is complete as >> it is. Too funny but still. >> >> >> I have the sort of live where I generally enjoy the retreat quite a lot, >> nothing as hard for me as semi-sincere and semi-aware parenting (alas that >> one must see one's flaws as a parent, the gap between preference and >> reality, in order to be a decent parent), but they definitely make things >> easier; if not by insight at least by spaciousness. >> >> Thanks, >> Chris Austin-Lane >> Sent from a cell phone >> >> On Sep 12, 2012, at 15:49, mike brown <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Merle, >>> >>> >>> Have you never been on a retreat? It's a great way to be free of the day to >>> day distractions which prevent us from going really deep within ourselves. >>> It's certainly not an escape from the world and can be one of the most >>> difficult and challenging times we can experience. But the insights we can >>> get from it, which might not be possible with our busy schedules, help us >>> to deal with the stuff everyday life throws at us. Don't knock it til you >>> try it! : ) >>> >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: Merle Lester <[email protected]> >>> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 23:07 >>> Subject: [Zen] the real world and zen power >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ..if you sit around meditating all day...just as some folk in other >>> religions pray/ chant all day then "nothing " is happening to upset the >>> apple cart so to speak.... going out in the real world...facing it...that's >>> when the "trouble " starts...that's when you need the "tools of survival" >>> to get through the day.. >>> .reality dawns >>> and reality can be a" bag of allsorts" as you all well know >>> that's when you need the" zen power" to get you through the day! >>> merle >>> >>> >>> >>> JM, >>> >>> >>>> Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without moving. >>>> Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha Heart Imprint >>>> was told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. Yak.. >>> >>> >>> Just out of interest, here's a schedule for a Vipassana retreat. >>> Compulsory/not compulsory just means that you can meditate in your own room >>> or in the main hall. You can see that there is a minimum of 10 hours a day >>> meditation over 10 days - ALL conducted in Noble silence with no reading or >>> writing material, music, books or cell phones etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> 4:00 – 04:30 Get Up & Take a Shower >>> 04:30 – 06:30 Meditation in the Main Hall (not compulsory) >>> 06:30 – 08:00 Breakfast & Rest >>> 08:00 – 10:00 Group Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >>> 10:00 – 11:00 Meditation in Hall (usually compulsory) >>> 11:00 – 13:00 Lunch & Rest >>> 13:00 – 14:30 Meditation in Hall (not compulsory) >>> 14:30 – 17:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >>> 17:00 – 18:00 Tea-time >>> 18:00 – 19:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >>> 19:00 – 20:20 Goenka Discourse Video >>> 20:30 – 21:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >>> 21:00 – 22:00 Shower & Rest >>> 22:00 Lights Out >>> >>> >>> A pretty intense schedule, but a great opportunity be free of the usual >>> daily distractions in order to go deep into the mind. >>> >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ >>> From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 7:15 >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: suffering >>> >>> >>> >>> Let me add to this... Surpass all comfort zone, all the knowledge, all the >>> basis, in short everything, is the key to Chan. >>> >>> Our minimum requirement is half lotus. Most of the serious > practitioners do full lotus. I do, because full lotus on the floor, > opens up all the meridians near the hip and the legs, so that our > body can be in tip top shape. >>> >>> Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without > moving. Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha > Heart Imprint was told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. > Yak.. >>> >>> jm >>> >>> >>> >>> On 9/11/2012 7:45 PM, mike brown wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Bill!, >>>> >>>> >>>> There are many different reasons why practioners from different traditions >>>> sit on their cushions. In Vipassana, we stay with the discomfort to see >>>> into how and the body affects the mind. If we constantly rearrange our >>>> sitting position when we experience discomfort, we miss the opportunity to >>>> see how dukkha (dissatisfaction) operates. That's one of the great things >>>> about mindfulness - we can go deeply into phenomena to see the 3 >>>> Characteristics (impermanence, dukkha, no-self) in operation. Sitting thru >>>> discomfort (dis-ease) is a great tool. >>>> >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ________________________________ >>>> From: Bill! <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 2:37 >>>> Subject: [Zen] Re: suffering >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> JMJM, et al... >>>> >>>> My initial teachers encouraged me to switch > legs, rock back and forth, stand up and walk > around and even use different postures, > (full-lotus, half-lotus, cross-legged, > kneeling and even just sitting on a chair - as > long as whatever posture I used allowed me to > breathe freely and deeply. That requires at > least an erect back to allow for 'belly > breathing' (breathing by using the diaphragm > instead of the chest or shoulders). Of course > if we were sitting with a group we were > encouraged not to change legs or do anything > overt which might bother others. Our sitting > sessions were usually 20-40 mins, then a 5-min > break, and then another session. We would sit > 3 sessions like that. >>>> >>>> ...Bill! >>>> >>>> --- In [email protected], 覺妙精明 （JMJM） <chan.jmjm@...> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> If I may add to this... >>>>> >>>>> My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs > during sitting..." In other >>>>> words, it is for training our mind to be > detached from our physical >>>>> body. Because, the physical body is our > first hindrance to >>>>> enlightenment. Then there is the > hindrance of our mind and hindrance of >>>>> our spirit to surpass next... Not hard. > Right? :-) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote: >>>>>> ED, >>>>>> >>>>>> I can't talk about zazen, but in > Vipassana, pain is something we're >>>>>> taught to welcome (within reason) > because it's a good tool to teach us >>>>>> insight into impermanence, suffering > and an impersonal self. I can >>>>>> honestly say that sitting without > moving for an hour, or more, >>>>>> sometimes creates the most intense > pain I have ever suffered in my >>>>>> life! The only time I've found that > pain is completely alleviated is >>>>>> when I've entered into the jhanas. > This is no exaggeration. I've gone >>>>>> from the most intense white-hot pain > to the most ecstatic bliss in an >>>>>> instant. Of course, and here's the > lesson, this state passes and the >>>>>> pain comes back once more. A > valuable lesson in the arising and >>>>>> passing of phenomena that is way > beyond just an intellectual >>>>>> understanding. >>>>>> >>>>>> Mike >>>>>> >>>>>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> *From:* ED <seacrofter001@...> >>>>>> *To:* [email protected] >>>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 September 2012, > 15:16 >>>>>> *Subject:* [Zen] Re: suffering >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bill! and Mike, >>>>>> >>>>>> Is it not the case that zazen or > vipasana can also help alleviate pain? >>>>>> >>>>>> --ED >>>>>> >>>>>> --- In [email protected] <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, >>>>>> "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Merle, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am also 66! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm about to give you some of > my definitions of terms and they're >>>>>> pretty 'tough-love' definitions so > be warned... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is > pain. Suffering is feeling sorry for >>>>>> yourself (your self) because perhaps > you're in pain and that does not >>>>>> meet up with your expectations and > disappoints you. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You do not have to suffer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The best example I know of this > is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've >>>>>> seen many of them. They aren't > suffering because (I presume) they don't >>>>>> have a strong 'mental model' of > 'self'. They don't feel sorry for >>>>>> themselves. They don't compare > themselves to other dogs. They just make >>>>>> do with what they've got. I've seen > dogs with only 2 legs and they don't >>>>>> act any differently than those with > 4. You could be a little >>>>>> condescending and say 'they don't > know any better' - when actually you >>>>>> should be just saying 'they don't > know' - and good for them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Contrast that with a human who > has lost a leg. Many such humans will >>>>>> suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? > 'What did I do to deserve this?' And be >>>>>> envious of full-bodied humans who > can do more and have more than they. >>>>>> Why? Because they DO have a strong > 'mental model' of 'self' and have >>>>>> expectations of what life SHOULD be > like, and do compare themselves with >>>>>> others. Their life is not like > others (the majority) and this >>>>>> disappoints them so they suffer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Zazen can help... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ...Bill! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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