Edgar, What makes you think I am plagued by 'dust'?
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > That's why in this lifetime you will always be plagued by dust and consider > it a nuisance, rather than realizing it's Buddha nature and enjoying it as a > natural part of reality... > > Edgar > > > > On Sep 14, 2012, at 3:44 AM, billsmart wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > That's not my understanding of Hui Neng's poem. My understanding (aka, > > accommodate it in my default mental model)is: > > > > Dust is illusion - Maya. The mirror is your discriminating, dualistic mind. > > Dust clinging to the mirror is attachment. The first monk's poem of > > 'keeping the mirror clean' means continually severing attachments. Hui > > Neng's poem 'no mirror where dust can alight' means realizing your > > discriminating, dualistic mind is illusory - it's not really there. Only > > Buddha Nature. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > This is a misunderstanding of Hui Neng's poem... > > > > > > It's not that the dust has nowhere to settle but that the dust itself is > > > DUSTLESS... > > > > > > Meaning that everything in reality is a manifestations of Buddha Nature, > > > even dust. > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 13, 2012, at 7:08 AM, mike brown wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Chris, > > > > > > > > >because this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is > > > > >complete as it is > > > > > > > > I often ask myself the same thing. Hui-eng's poem was accepted by his > > > > master because he spoke of there being no mirror to polish so there is > > > > no where for the dust to settle. Yet Buddha spoke about people having > > > > different amounts of dust in their eyes. It's not really an either/or > > > > argument (I don't want to end up as a fox for 500 rebirths!). One > > > > speaks of ultimate truth - the other a conventional truth. I'm still > > > > largely a prisoner of conditions, even though I intuitively know that > > > > these conditions are illusionary. But to "just drop them", as so many > > > > people here are want to say, is rather easier to say than actually do. > > > > So I keep polishing, because even though mirror may, or may not, exist > > > > - I know that the dust does. [insert ironic statements here ; )]. > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > From: ChrisAustinLane <chris@> > > > > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > > Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012, 0:38 > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] the real world and zen power > > > > > > > > > > > > I must second this. I have saved an email from you Mike where in you > > > > ask some tormenter if they do not find the world a bit cleaner after a > > > > sesshin (part of the endless words on polishing vs. ceasing). I have > > > > not replied because this is the crux; why do we practice when > > > > everything is complete as it is. Too funny but still. > > > > > > > > I have the sort of live where I generally enjoy the retreat quite a > > > > lot, nothing as hard for me as semi-sincere and semi-aware parenting > > > > (alas that one must see one's flaws as a parent, the gap between > > > > preference and reality, in order to be a decent parent), but they > > > > definitely make things easier; if not by insight at least by > > > > spaciousness. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Chris Austin-Lane > > > > Sent from a cell phone > > > > > > > > On Sep 12, 2012, at 15:49, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > > > > >> Merle, > > > >> > > > >> Have you never been on a retreat? It's a great way to be free of the > > > >> day to day distractions which prevent us from going really deep within > > > >> ourselves. It's certainly not an escape from the world and can be one > > > >> of the most difficult and challenging times we can experience. But the > > > >> insights we can get from it, which might not be possible with our busy > > > >> schedules, help us to deal with the stuff everyday life throws at us. > > > >> Don't knock it til you try it! : ) > > > >> > > > >> Mike > > > >> > > > >> From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> > > > >> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 23:07 > > > >> Subject: [Zen] the real world and zen power > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> ..if you sit around meditating all day...just as some folk in other > > > >> religions pray/ chant all day then "nothing " is happening to upset > > > >> the apple cart so to speak.... going out in the real world...facing > > > >> it...that's when the "trouble " starts...that's when you need the > > > >> "tools of survival" to get through the day.. > > > >> .reality dawns > > > >> and reality can be a" bag of allsorts" as you all well know > > > >> that's when you need the" zen power" to get you through the day! > > > >> merle > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> JM, > > > >> > > > >> >Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without > > > >> >moving. Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha > > > >> >Heart Imprint was told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. Yak.. > > > >> > > > >> Just out of interest, here's a schedule for a Vipassana retreat. > > > >> Compulsory/not compulsory just means that you can meditate in your own > > > >> room or in the main hall. You can see that there is a minimum of 10 > > > >> hours a day meditation over 10 days - ALL conducted in Noble silence > > > >> with no reading or writing material, music, books or cell phones etc. > > > >> > > > >> 4:00 â" 04:30 Get Up & Take a Shower > > > >> 04:30 â" 06:30 Meditation in the Main Hall (not compulsory) > > > >> 06:30 â" 08:00 Breakfast & Rest > > > >> 08:00 â" 10:00 Group Meditation in Hall (compulsory) > > > >> 10:00 â" 11:00 Meditation in Hall (usually compulsory) > > > >> 11:00 â" 13:00 Lunch & Rest > > > >> 13:00 â" 14:30 Meditation in Hall (not compulsory) > > > >> 14:30 â" 17:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) > > > >> 17:00 â" 18:00 Tea-time > > > >> 18:00 â" 19:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) > > > >> 19:00 â" 20:20 Goenka Discourse Video > > > >> 20:30 â" 21:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) > > > >> 21:00 â" 22:00 Shower & Rest > > > >> 22:00 Lights Out > > > >> > > > >> A pretty intense schedule, but a great opportunity be free of the > > > >> usual daily distractions in order to go deep into the mind. > > > >> > > > >> Mike > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> From: 覺å¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼ <chan.jmjm@> > > > >> To: [email protected] > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 7:15 > > > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: suffering > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Let me add to this... Surpass all comfort zone, all the knowledge, all > > > >> the basis, in short everything, is the key to Chan. > > > >> > > > >> Our minimum requirement is half lotus. Most of the serious > > > >> practitioners do full lotus. I do, because full lotus on the floor, > > > >> opens up all the meridians near the hip and the legs, so that our body > > > >> can be in tip top shape. > > > >> > > > >> Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without > > > >> moving. Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha > > > >> Heart Imprint was told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. Yak.. > > > >> > > > >> jm > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 9/11/2012 7:45 PM, mike brown wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> Bill!, > > > >>> > > > >>> There are many different reasons why practioners from different > > > >>> traditions sit on their cushions. In Vipassana, we stay with the > > > >>> discomfort to see into how and the body affects the mind. If we > > > >>> constantly rearrange our sitting position when we experience > > > >>> discomfort, we miss the opportunity to see how dukkha > > > >>> (dissatisfaction) operates. That's one of the great things about > > > >>> mindfulness - we can go deeply into phenomena to see the 3 > > > >>> Characteristics (impermanence, dukkha, no-self) in operation. Sitting > > > >>> thru discomfort (dis-ease) is a great tool. > > > >>> > > > >>> Mike > > > >>> > > > >>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > >>> To: [email protected] > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 2:37 > > > >>> Subject: [Zen] Re: suffering > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> JMJM, et al... > > > >>> > > > >>> My initial teachers encouraged me to switch legs, rock back and > > > >>> forth, stand up and walk around and even use different postures, > > > >>> (full-lotus, half-lotus, cross-legged, kneeling and even just sitting > > > >>> on a chair - as long as whatever posture I used allowed me to breathe > > > >>> freely and deeply. That requires at least an erect back to allow for > > > >>> 'belly breathing' (breathing by using the diaphragm instead of the > > > >>> chest or shoulders). Of course if we were sitting with a group we > > > >>> were encouraged not to change legs or do anything overt which might > > > >>> bother others. Our sitting sessions were usually 20-40 mins, then a > > > >>> 5-min break, and then another session. We would sit 3 sessions like > > > >>> that. > > > >>> > > > >>> ...Bill! > > > >>> > > > >>> --- In [email protected], 覺å¦â¢Ã§Â²Â¾Ã¦ËŽ > > > >>> ï¼ËJMJMï¼Ⱐ<chan.jmjm@> wrote: > > > >>> > > > > >>> > If I may add to this... > > > >>> > > > > >>> > My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs during sitting..." In > > > >>> > other > > > >>> > words, it is for training our mind to be detached from our physical > > > >>> > body. Because, the physical body is our first hindrance to > > > >>> > enlightenment. Then there is the hindrance of our mind and > > > >>> > hindrance of > > > >>> > our spirit to surpass next... Not hard. Right? :-) > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote: > > > >>> > > ED, > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > I can't talk about zazen, but in Vipassana, pain is something > > > >>> > > we're > > > >>> > > taught to welcome (within reason) because it's a good tool to > > > >>> > > teach us > > > >>> > > insight into impermanence, suffering and an impersonal self. I > > > >>> > > can > > > >>> > > honestly say that sitting without moving for an hour, or more, > > > >>> > > sometimes creates the most intense pain I have ever suffered in > > > >>> > > my > > > >>> > > life! The only time I've found that pain is completely alleviated > > > >>> > > is > > > >>> > > when I've entered into the jhanas. This is no exaggeration. I've > > > >>> > > gone > > > >>> > > from the most intense white-hot pain to the most ecstatic bliss > > > >>> > > in an > > > >>> > > instant. Of course, and here's the lesson, this state passes and > > > >>> > > the > > > >>> > > pain comes back once more. A valuable lesson in the arising and > > > >>> > > passing of phenomena that is way beyond just an intellectual > > > >>> > > understanding. > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Mike > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>> > > *From:* ED <seacrofter001@> > > > >>> > > *To:* [email protected] > > > >>> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 September 2012, 15:16 > > > >>> > > *Subject:* [Zen] Re: suffering > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Bill! and Mike, > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate > > > >>> > > pain? > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > --ED > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > --- In [email protected] > > > >>> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, > > > >>> > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > Merle, > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > I am also 66! > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and > > > >>> > > > they're > > > >>> > > pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned... > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry > > > >>> > > > for > > > >>> > > yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does > > > >>> > > not > > > >>> > > meet up with your expectations and disappoints you. > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > You do not have to suffer. > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure > > > >>> > > > you've > > > >>> > > seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they > > > >>> > > don't > > > >>> > > have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for > > > >>> > > themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They > > > >>> > > just make > > > >>> > > do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and > > > >>> > > they don't > > > >>> > > act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little > > > >>> > > condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when > > > >>> > > actually you > > > >>> > > should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them. > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans > > > >>> > > > will > > > >>> > > suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?' > > > >>> > > And be > > > >>> > > envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than > > > >>> > > they. > > > >>> > > Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and > > > >>> > > have > > > >>> > > expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare > > > >>> > > themselves with > > > >>> > > others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this > > > >>> > > disappoints them so they suffer. > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > Zazen can help... > > > >>> > > > > > > >>> > > > ...Bill! > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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