yes. yes yes..edgar..how right you are....dust and cobwebs....merle
Bill, That's why in this lifetime you will always be plagued by dust and consider it a nuisance, rather than realizing it's Buddha nature and enjoying it as a natural part of reality... Edgar On Sep 14, 2012, at 3:44 AM, billsmart wrote: >Edgar, > >That's not my understanding of Hui Neng's poem. My understanding (aka, >accommodate it in my default mental model)is: > >Dust is illusion - Maya. The mirror is your discriminating, dualistic mind. >Dust clinging to the mirror is attachment. The first monk's poem of 'keeping >the mirror clean' means continually severing attachments. Hui Neng's poem 'no >mirror where dust can alight' means realizing your discriminating, dualistic >mind is illusory - it's not really there. Only Buddha Nature. > >...Bill! > >--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >> >> Mike, >> >> This is a misunderstanding of Hui Neng's poem... >> >> It's not that the dust has nowhere to settle but that the dust itself is >> DUSTLESS... >> >> Meaning that everything in reality is a manifestations of Buddha Nature, >> even dust. >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 13, 2012, at 7:08 AM, mike brown wrote: >> >> > >> > Chris, >> > >> > >because this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is complete >> > >as it is >> > >> > I often ask myself the same thing. Hui-eng's poem was accepted by his >> > master because he spoke of there being no mirror to polish so there is no >> > where for the dust to settle. Yet Buddha spoke about people having >> > different amounts of dust in their eyes. It's not really an either/or >> > argument (I don't want to end up as a fox for 500 rebirths!). One speaks >> > of ultimate truth - the other a conventional truth. I'm still largely a >> > prisoner of conditions, even though I intuitively know that these >> > conditions are illusionary. But to "just drop them", as so many people >> > here are want to say, is rather easier to say than actually do. So I keep >> > polishing, because even though mirror may, or may not, exist - I know that >> > the dust does. [insert ironic statements here ; )]. >> > >> > Mike >> > >> > From: ChrisAustinLane <chris@...> >> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> > Cc: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> > Sent: Thursday, 13 September 2012, 0:38 >> > Subject: Re: [Zen] the real world and zen power >> > >> > >> > I must second this. I have saved an email from you Mike where in you ask >> > some tormenter if they do not find the world a bit cleaner after a sesshin >> > (part of the endless words on polishing vs. ceasing). I have not replied >> > because this is the crux; why do we practice when everything is complete >> > as it is. Too funny but still. >> > >> > I have the sort of live where I generally enjoy the retreat quite a lot, >> > nothing as hard for me as semi-sincere and semi-aware parenting (alas that >> > one must see one's flaws as a parent, the gap between preference and >> > reality, in order to be a decent parent), but they definitely make things >> > easier; if not by insight at least by spaciousness. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Chris Austin-Lane >> > Sent from a cell phone >> > >> > On Sep 12, 2012, at 15:49, mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: >> > >> >> Merle, >> >> >> >> Have you never been on a retreat? It's a great way to be free of the day >> >> to day distractions which prevent us from going really deep within >> >> ourselves. It's certainly not an escape from the world and can be one of >> >> the most difficult and challenging times we can experience. But the >> >> insights we can get from it, which might not be possible with our busy >> >> schedules, help us to deal with the stuff everyday life throws at us. >> >> Don't knock it til you try it! : ) >> >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> >> >> To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> >> >> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 23:07 >> >> Subject: [Zen] the real world and zen power >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ..if you sit around meditating all day...just as some folk in other >> >> religions pray/ chant all day then "nothing " is happening to upset the >> >> apple cart so to speak.... going out in the real world...facing >> >> it...that's when the "trouble " starts...that's when you need the "tools >> >> of survival" to get through the day.. >> >> .reality dawns >> >> and reality can be a" bag of allsorts" as you all well know >> >> that's when you need the" zen power" to get you through the day! >> >> merle >> >> >> >> >> >> JM, >> >> >> >> >Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without >> >> >moving. Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha >> >> >Heart Imprint was told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. Yak.. >> >> >> >> Just out of interest, here's a schedule for a Vipassana retreat. >> >> Compulsory/not compulsory just means that you can meditate in your own >> >> room or in the main hall. You can see that there is a minimum of 10 hours >> >> a day meditation over 10 days - ALL conducted in Noble silence with no >> >> reading or writing material, music, books or cell phones etc. >> >> >> >> 4:00 â€" 04:30 Get Up & Take a Shower >> >> 04:30 â€" 06:30 Meditation in the Main Hall (not compulsory) >> >> 06:30 â€" 08:00 Breakfast & Rest >> >> 08:00 â€" 10:00 Group Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >> >> 10:00 â€" 11:00 Meditation in Hall (usually compulsory) >> >> 11:00 â€" 13:00 Lunch & Rest >> >> 13:00 â€" 14:30 Meditation in Hall (not compulsory) >> >> 14:30 â€" 17:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >> >> 17:00 â€" 18:00 Tea-time >> >> 18:00 â€" 19:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >> >> 19:00 â€" 20:20 Goenka Discourse Video >> >> 20:30 â€" 21:00 Meditation in Hall (compulsory) >> >> 21:00 â€" 22:00 Shower & Rest >> >> 22:00 Lights Out >> >> >> >> A pretty intense schedule, but a great opportunity be free of the usual >> >> daily distractions in order to go deep into the mind. >> >> >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: 覺妙精明 （JMJM） <chan.jmjm@...> >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 7:15 >> >> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: suffering >> >> >> >> >> >> Let me add to this... Surpass all comfort zone, all the knowledge, all >> >> the basis, in short everything, is the key to Chan. >> >> >> >> Our minimum requirement is half lotus. Most of the serious practitioners >> >> do full lotus. I do, because full lotus on the floor, opens up all the >> >> meridians near the hip and the legs, so that our body can be in tip top >> >> shape. >> >> >> >> Serious practitioners were asked to sit at least one hour without moving. >> >> Mark Troxell, the one recently was transmitted with Buddha Heart Imprint >> >> was told to meditate FOUR hours a day, I was told. Yak.. >> >> >> >> jm >> >> >> >> >> >> On 9/11/2012 7:45 PM, mike brown wrote: >> >>> >> >>> Bill!, >> >>> >> >>> There are many different reasons why practioners from different >> >>> traditions sit on their cushions. In Vipassana, we stay with the >> >>> discomfort to see into how and the body affects the mind. If we >> >>> constantly rearrange our sitting position when we experience discomfort, >> >>> we miss the opportunity to see how dukkha (dissatisfaction) operates. >> >>> That's one of the great things about mindfulness - we can go deeply into >> >>> phenomena to see the 3 Characteristics (impermanence, dukkha, no-self) >> >>> in operation. Sitting thru discomfort (dis-ease) is a great tool. >> >>> >> >>> Mike >> >>> >> >>> From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> >> >>> To: [email protected] >> >>> Sent: Wednesday, 12 September 2012, 2:37 >> >>> Subject: [Zen] Re: suffering >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> JMJM, et al... >> >>> >> >>> My initial teachers encouraged me to switch legs, rock back and forth, >> >>> stand up and walk around and even use different postures, (full-lotus, >> >>> half-lotus, cross-legged, kneeling and even just sitting on a chair - as >> >>> long as whatever posture I used allowed me to breathe freely and deeply. >> >>> That requires at least an erect back to allow for 'belly breathing' >> >>> (breathing by using the diaphragm instead of the chest or shoulders). Of >> >>> course if we were sitting with a group we were encouraged not to change >> >>> legs or do anything overt which might bother others. Our sitting >> >>> sessions were usually 20-40 mins, then a 5-min break, and then another >> >>> session. We would sit 3 sessions like that. >> >>> >> >>> ...Bill! >> >>> >> >>> --- In [email protected], 覺妙精明 >> >>> （JMJM） <chan.jmjm@> wrote: >> >>> > >> >>> > If I may add to this... >> >>> > >> >>> > My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs during sitting..." In other >> >>> > words, it is for training our mind to be detached from our physical >> >>> > body. Because, the physical body is our first hindrance to >> >>> > enlightenment. Then there is the hindrance of our mind and hindrance >> >>> > of >> >>> > our spirit to surpass next... Not hard. Right? :-) >> >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote: >> >>> > > ED, >> >>> > > >> >>> > > I can't talk about zazen, but in Vipassana, pain is something we're >> >>> > > taught to welcome (within reason) because it's a good tool to teach >> >>> > > us >> >>> > > insight into impermanence, suffering and an impersonal self. I can >> >>> > > honestly say that sitting without moving for an hour, or more, >> >>> > > sometimes creates the most intense pain I have ever suffered in my >> >>> > > life! The only time I've found that pain is completely alleviated is >> >>> > > when I've entered into the jhanas. This is no exaggeration. I've >> >>> > > gone >> >>> > > from the most intense white-hot pain to the most ecstatic bliss in >> >>> > > an >> >>> > > instant. Of course, and here's the lesson, this state passes and the >> >>> > > pain comes back once more. A valuable lesson in the arising and >> >>> > > passing of phenomena that is way beyond just an intellectual >> >>> > > understanding. >> >>> > > >> >>> > > Mike >> >>> > > >> >>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- >> >>> > > *From:* ED <seacrofter001@> >> >>> > > *To:* [email protected] >> >>> > > *Sent:* Tuesday, 11 September 2012, 15:16 >> >>> > > *Subject:* [Zen] Re: suffering >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > Bill! and Mike, >> >>> > > >> >>> > > Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate >> >>> > > pain? >> >>> > > >> >>> > > --ED >> >>> > > >> >>> > > --- In [email protected] >> >>> > > <mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, >> >>> > > "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > Merle, >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > I am also 66! >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and they're >> >>> > > pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned... >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry for >> >>> > > yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does not >> >>> > > meet up with your expectations and disappoints you. >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > You do not have to suffer. >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've >> >>> > > seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they >> >>> > > don't >> >>> > > have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for >> >>> > > themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They just >> >>> > > make >> >>> > > do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and they >> >>> > > don't >> >>> > > act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little >> >>> > > condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when actually >> >>> > > you >> >>> > > should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them. >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans >> >>> > > > will >> >>> > > suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?' >> >>> > > And be >> >>> > > envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than >> >>> > > they. >> >>> > > Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and have >> >>> > > expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare themselves >> >>> > > with >> >>> > > others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this >> >>> > > disappoints them so they suffer. >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > Zazen can help... >> >>> > > > >> >>> > > > ...Bill! >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >
