Re: [Zen] greed has no boundaries an climate change is real..( human made)

Bill! Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:24:19 -0700

Merle,

What's your definition of 'pollution'?  ...Bill!


--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Â go to beijing...the sky is grey with pollution..for christ sake...we are 
> all polluting the atmosphere...B were do you live are you in touch with 
> nature at all?...do you actually experience nature or just read about it 
> ?...merle
> Â  
> Thank you KG.Â  My experienceÂ as an Exploration Geophysicist and studies in 
> Historical and Glacial Geology also confirm what you say.Â  It is interesting 
> that during the last Ice Age global sea levels were 600 feet lower than they 
> are today.Â Â From an Archeolgical and Anthropological standpoint this 
> suggests that evidence of human occupation will be found along these drowned 
> river valleys and the current Continental Shelf.Â Â This is exciting to me 
> andÂ there is some work currently being done in parts of the world.Â  Â Â 
> Â B 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Find what makes your heart singâ¦and do it! 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
>  From: Kristopher Grey <kris@...>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Sun, October 14, 2012 1:02:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [Zen] greed has no boundaries an climate change is real..( human 
> made)
> 
> Â  
> With only 60+ credit hours in Atmospheric 
> Science/Meteorology/Oceanography/Space Weather/etc. - and having been a sea 
> ice analyst/forecaster for both polar regions at NAVPOLAROCEANCEN, doing 
> tropical weather at the Joint Typhoon Warning Center, and working as a 
> weather observer and forecaster on land and sea in both hemispheres for many 
> years - I tend to keep out of such discussions.
> 
> Beyond noting the the other planets in our system show similar warming - we 
> are still thawing out from the last ice age - climate is not sensibly 
> observable on the scale of a human lifetime - and hasn't shown any 
> consistency over the span of human or even planetary existence - I will leave 
> people to their largely politically informed opinions and superstitions.
> 
> The anthropomorphic crowd may get us to be a bit cleaner, which just being 
> responsible (though this threatens to come at ridiculous expense and 
> inefficiency due to government
>  having wet dreams over the opportunity to license & tax the air). The big 
> picture folks (what Merle likely has been programmed to call "deniers" - even 
> thought they don't deny warming trends at all - or even that we have a hand 
> in it - but only question the extent and reasonable response - if any - is 
> needed) may remind us were not "all that".
> 
> "Keep a weather eye!" 
> 
> KG
> 
> PS -Â  Just 50 years ago there were people who stood 3x my height living all 
> over the World!
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/14/2012 11:59 AM, William Rintala wrote:
> 
> Â  
> >Merle:
> >Â 
> >I was going to let you get away with this but I am curious to examineÂ the 
> >evidenceÂ that supports your position on global warming and human's as its 
> >cause.Â  PleaseÂ send it to me at at brintala@...Â or post it here if you 
> >wish. Or are you one of those people who say things likeÂ "please don't 
> >confuse the issue with facts, my mind is alreadyÂ made up"?Â  I've watched 
> >Al Gore's "Inconvenient Truth" and nothing he saidÂ convinced me.Â  Yes 
> >theÂ atmosphere is warming and yes the glaciers are retreating but this has 
> >been happening for at least 12000 years. During the last Glacial period 
> >there was overÂ a mile of ice covering the place where I was born in 1950. 
> >It's allÂ gone now. Please respond with facts and not slander.Â  Saying that 
> >I am wicked or that humans are the worst disaster that ever happened on 
> >earthÂ offers me nothing to make a decision on.Â  Just saying something 
> >doesn't make it so.
> >Â B 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Find what makes your heart singâ¦and do it! 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...>
> >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Sun, October 14, 2012 3:05:01 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Zen] greed has no boundaries an climate change is real..( 
> >human made)
> >
> >Â  
> >B... climate change is real and EVERYTHING TO DO WITH US... Â you are wicked 
> >to say otherwise!..merle
> >Â Merle:
> >Â 
> >Â Â Â Â You are beginning to sound like Schopenhauer whoÂ believed that the 
> >best thing that humanity could do is to stop breeding and allow the species 
> >to die out.Â  Climate change is a matter of geologic fact, it is happening 
> >and has nothing to do with us.Â  It's been warming up for over 12,000 
> >years.Â  Studies of ice cores from glaciers in Greenland and Antartica (the 
> >VostokÂ ice cores) gives us a record going back 800,000 yearsÂ through 
> >several Glacial and interglacial periods.Â  Analysis of gases trapped in the 
> >ice show a marked increase in greenhouse gassesÂ during interglacial 
> >periods.Â  This is consistent withÂ the explosion of life during those times 
> >(Carbon Dioxide, Methane). The eruption of Krakatoa in 1883 was much more 
> >catastophic that anything humans have done the average global temperatures 
> >fell by as much as 1.2 Â°C (2.2 Â°F). Weather patterns continued to be 
> >chaotic for years, and temperatures did not return to normal until 1888. The
>  eruption injected an unusually large amount of sulfur dioxide (SO2) gas high 
> into the stratosphere which was subsequently transported by high-level winds 
> all over the planet. This led to a global increase in sulfurous acid (H2SO3) 
> concentration in high-level cirrus clouds. The resulting increase in cloud 
> reflectivity (or albedo) would reflect more incoming light from the sun than 
> usual, and cool the entire planet until the suspended sulfur fell to the 
> ground as acid precipitation.Â  The Eruption ofÂ Santorini 3600 years ago did 
> even more damage.Â  The eruption of Mount Pinatubo on June 15, 1991 produced 
> the second largest terrestrial eruption of the 20th century after the 1912 
> eruption of Novarupta in the Alaska Peninsula.Â  The effects of the Pinatubo 
> eruption were felt worldwide. It ejected roughly 10,000,000,000 tonnes 
> (1.1Ã1010 short tons) or 10 km3 (2.4 cu mi) of magma, and 20,000,000 t 
> (22,000,000 short tons)SO2 bringing vast quantities of
>  minerals and metals to the surface environment. It injected large amounts of 
> aerosol into the stratosphere â" more than any eruption since that of 
> Krakatoa. Over the following months, the aerosols formed a global layer of 
> sulfuric acid haze. Global temperatures dropped by about 0.5 Â°C (0.900 Â°F), 
> and ozone depletion temporarily increased substantially. Mount St Helen's in 
> 1980 was a relatively minor eruption and it sent up stuff that circled the 
> globe and its eruption was aÂ blast that was 400 times more powerful than the 
> atomic bomb that leveled Hiroshima.Â Â  
> >Â 
> >So what am I saying?Â  The earth is very large compared to anything human. 
> >Â The forces that actually control thingsÂ are on a scale of magnitude 
> >beyond anything that humanity can ever hope toÂ control. We are merely one 
> >very small piece of this emmense planet. It will shrug us off like an 
> >elephant does a flea.Â Â Near where you are in New Zealand you have Mount 
> >Taranaki whichÂ began erupting about 130,000 years ago, with large eruptions 
> >occurring on average every 500 years and smaller eruptions about 90 years 
> >apart. An explosive medium sized ash eruption occurred around 1755AD and 
> >minor volcanic events (creation of a lava dome in the crater and its 
> >collapse) occurred in the 1800âs. The last major eruption was around 1655 
> >AD so we are due for another any time now and overdue for a small to medium 
> >sized one.Â  The power of nature is terrible to behold. Remember the Tyrant 
> >Lizard, Tyranosaurus Rex? The Thunder Lizard, Brontosaurus?Â  To quote 
> >Shelly and
>  his poem to the great Egyptian King Ramesses II 
> >Â 
> >Ozymandias
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  I met a 
> >traveller from an antique land
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â 
>  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> Â Â Â  Who said: Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â 
>  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Stand in the desert. Near them, on the
>  sand,
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â &am
> p;am p;am p;nb sp;Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  And wrinkled lip, and sneer 
> >of cold
>  command,
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
>  Â  Tell that its sculptor well those passions
>  read
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
> > Which yet
>  survive, stamped on these lifeless
>  things,
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â T
>  he hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  And on the pedestal 
> >these words appear:
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â 
>  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â &a
> mp;a mp;a mp;n bsp;Â  Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Nothing beside 
> >remains. Round the
>  decay
> >Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 
>  Â Â Â  Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  
> >Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  Â Â Â  The lone and level 
> >sands stretch far away
> >Â 
> >Â 
> >My belief is that humansÂ are not the scourge of the earth. All we have is 
> >this moment.Â  All that we canÂ work with isÂ rightÂ here, right 
> >now.Â Â Ringing our hands, calling namesÂ and condeming the species does 
> >nothing but increase the distance between us. It's gilding the lilly I 
> >suppose to further quote Gandhi in saying that you must be the change you 
> >want to see in the world.
> >Â B 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Find what makes your heart singâ¦and do it! 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...>
> >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Sat, October 13, 2012 8:36:24 PM
> >Subject: [Zen] greed has no boundaries
> >
> >Â  
> >
> >
> >Â b... we are destroying nature!Â 
> >Â get over it and accept.
> >.humans are the worst disaster that ever happened to this earth..without 
> >humans it would be paradise!..
> >..where the hell do you live?..
> >. do you commune with nature..?
> >..here where i live upon this mountain top i see the devastation..the 
> >climate change what it does to the garden" the garden of paradise".
> >..yes and as you say humans are not significant in the scheme of things
> >... but we are here now
> >...so why destroy"?
> >...we have the intelligence to make this a paradise on earth..why we do not 
> >is because of: GREED!
> >Â Â 
> >Â greed has no boundaries
> >
> >
> >Â however some us walk amongst us who can see the light!
> >Â and care
> >Â merle
> >
> >
> >Â  
> >I agree Bill!.Â  I have always been confused by people who say that humans 
> >are destroying the environment or are acting in a way that harms nature.Â  
> >Unless we came from another planetÂ we are a part of nature and nature is 
> >and has always been in a stae of flux.Â  Human beings are not the beginning 
> >or the end of the process of natural evolution.Â  If we create a world that 
> >isÂ toxic to us we willÂ become unfit (to use Darwin's meaning of the 
> >word).Â  As a part of natureÂ it is in our own best interest to create and 
> >nurture an environment that is conducive to our survival as a species.Â  
> >However, from a geologic perspective homo sapien isn'tÂ very significant not 
> >even worthy of a footnote. Joe, when is it postulated that our sun 
> >willÂ become a Red Giant?Â  How long before that will lifeÂ onÂ Earth become 
> >unsustainable, something like 5 thousand million years?
> >Â 
> >B 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Find what makes your heart singâ¦and do it! 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________________________
> > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...>
> >To: [email protected]
> >Sent: Sat, October 13, 2012 4:21:07 AM
> >Subject: Re: [Zen] calm down
> >
> >Â  
> >Mike,
> >
> >I think you may have misread me, or I have misstated my position.
> >
> >My position is that EVERYTHING humans do is part of nature - is natural. 
> >This is as opposed to those who say that humans 'interfere with' nature or 
> >do 'unnatural' things.
> >
> >Oh! I just re-read your post and see what you're really pointing out is what 
> >you think is the inconsistency in the statements about 'nature' and then 
> >'reality'.
> >
> >I do not consider 'nature' as 'reality'. 'Nature' is itself a mental 
> >construct (illusion).
> >
> >I suspect that you want to, as does Edgar, to say that 'reality' includes 
> >EVERYTHING including illusions, but I say no. Reality is Reality, or 
> >Emptiness is Emptiness. Illusions are Illusions, or Form is Form.
> >
> >That's the way it looks from my side of cyberspace anyway. 
> >
> >...Bill!
> >
> >--- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> >>
> >> Bill!,
> >> 
> >> 
> >> >but your statement implies that human intervention and management is NOT 
> >> >part of nature.
> >> 
> >> Yet then you say:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> >These mental constructs are NOT reality.
> >> 
> >> In this big old universe of ours, what can stand apart/outside?
> >> 
> >> Mike
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ________________________________
> >> From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> >> To: [email protected] 
> >> Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2012, 2:30
> >> Subject: Re: [Zen] calm down
> >> 
> >> 
> >> ÃÂ  
> >> Edgar,
> >> 
> >> You're doing it AGAIN!
> >> 
> >> You just stated: "...letting nature take care of itself with minimal human 
> >> intervention or 'management'. Now at least you said 'minimal', but your 
> >> statement implies that human intervention and management is NOT part of 
> >> nature.
> >> 
> >> I'll give you an extreme, concrete example so there can be no wiggle room 
> >> for either of us: Humans create nuclear power and then dispose of 
> >> radioactive nuclear waste in a manner that changes the environment.
> >> 
> >> Is this human activity natural (part of nature) or not?
> >> 
> >> ...Bill! 
> >> 
> >> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Bill,
> >> > 
> >> > No, you have my views exactly backward. I'm supporting the NON human 
> >> > view of the environment, the view of letting nature take care of itself 
> >> > with minimal human intervention or 'management'.
> >> > 
> >> > Edgar
> >> > 
> >> > 
> >> > On Oct 12, 2012, at 3:00 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > > Edgar,
> >> > > 
> >> > > Action is indeed not inconsistent with zen.
> >> > > 
> >> > > What I and I believe KG are trying to point out is most everything 
> >> > > you've talked about concerning the environment is based on a 
> >> > > human-centric point of view. So when you throw around terms like 
> >> > > 'interfering' and telling us to 'grow up', my only response back to 
> >> > > you would be 'grow out' - expand your perspective...Bill! 
> >> >
>  > 
> >> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > KG,
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > Your notion that nothing can be done to save the planet is dangerous 
> >> > > > and mistaken. There are many who are working diligently including 
> >> > > > myself. To what extent it succeeds remains to be seen.
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > Zen is not equivalent to hopelessness, inaction and nihilism as you 
> >> > > > imply. That's a serious Western misconception. Action can be done 
> >> > > > with Zen quite effectively... Action is NOT inconsistent with Zen.
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > Edgar
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > 
> >> > > > On Oct 10, 2012, at 10:59 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
> >> >
>  > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > I never said a wit about OK/not OK. That's your judgement.
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > I simply find the very premise, as you lay it out, to be formed of 
> >> > > > > the same destructive impulse to control.
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > I might say planetary scale destruction is inevitable, as that 
> >> > > > > appears a logical albeit pointless conclusion, but I certainly 
> >> > > > > don't claim to know so. Nor do I have reason to be concerned in 
> >> > > > > the way you appear to be. Righteous indignation may feel good, but 
> >> > > > > it's not a prerequisite for action. It only acts to spins the 
> >> > > > > wheel.
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > KG
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > On 10/10/2012 7:35 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >> > > > >> 
> >> > > > >>
>  Merle,
> >> > > > >> 
> >> > > > >> 
> >> > > > >> Yes, KG seems obsessively attached to this discussion and why 
> >> > > > >> destroying the planet is OK...
> >> > > > >> :-)
> >> > > > >> 
> >> > > > >> Edgar
> >> > > > >> 
> >> > > > >> 
> >> > > > >> 
> >> > > > >> On Oct 10, 2012, at 5:56 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
> >> > > > >> 
> >> > > > >>> 
> >> > > > >>> 
> >> > > > >>> 
> >> > > > >>> hey hey lads...settle down..calm please!...KG your loosing the 
> >> > > > >>> pulse..merle
> >> > > > >>> 
> >> > > > >>> 
> >> > > > >>> Yes, yes. That you hold a great many things to be of high 
> >> > > > >>> importance is obvious to all but you. Thus you assume
>  others are are talking about such things, and assume they are ignorant of 
> same, when they are only talking about your ignorant attachments to these 
> forms of divisive thinking.
> >> > > > >>> 
> >> > > > >>> KG
> >> > > > >>> 
> >> > > > >>> On 10/10/2012 11:27 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >> > > > >>>> 
> >> > > > >>>> KG,
> >> > > > >>>> 
> >> > > > >>>> I find it appalling you support the destruction of the planet 
> >> > > > >>>> by humans and attack those who argue against it...
> >> > > > >>>> 
> >> > > > >>>> The lowest of the low...
> >> > > > >>>> 
> >> > > > >>>> Edgar
> >> > > > >>>> 
> >> > > > >>>> 
> >> > > > >>>> 
> >> > > > >>>> On Oct 10, 2012, at 10:52 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
> >> > > > >>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>> Definitive dependency - in other words you frame this in a 
> >> > > > >>>>> self-supporting way. The way a child argues when trying to 
> >> > > > >>>>> sound all grown up. You might as well just say:
> >> > > > >>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>> "You are a stupid baby! Stop being such a stupid baby!" *L*
> >> > > > >>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>> No one is denying 'reality' but you Edgar. You are perverting 
> >> > > > >>>>> others words to fit your preconceptions. You frame things as 
> >> > > > >>>>> being out of control/needing to be controlled - which is the 
> >> > > > >>>>> very divisive attitude that causes all the shit you find so 
> >> > > > >>>>> wrong in the world.
> >> > > >
>  >>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>> Opposition distracts.
> >> > > > >>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>> KG
> >> > > > >>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>> On 10/10/2012 6:47 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >> > > > >>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>> Bill,
> >> > > > >>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>> By your perverted logic it is totally OK for man to be 
> >> > > > >>>>>> destroying the planet because that's just a natural process.
> >> > > > >>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>> Grow up and get real. Zen is not clever sophisms, it's 
> >> > > > >>>>>> reality...
> >> > > > >>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>> Edgar
> >> > > >
>  >>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>> On Oct 10, 2012, at 6:20 AM, Bill! wrote:
> >> > > > >>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> Edgar,
> >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> What's REALLY important is that it's been framed wrong. It's 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> been framed as humans vs. nature, or as you put it humans 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> 'interfering' in nature. As long as humans think they are 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> not part of nature and taht all their action are natural 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> there will be this problem.
> >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> When a beaver builds a dam is that interfering with nature? 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> When a squirrel shits in the woods is that interfering with
>  nature? When a human splits an atom is that interfering with nature? When a 
> human manipulates DNA is that interfering with nature?
> >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> What is the quality that humans have that other animals 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> don't have that renders them capable of interference - IYO? 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> (I just made that up, IYO = 'in your opinion')
> >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> ...Bill!
> >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> > > > >>>>>>> >
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > Come on Bill.
> >> > > >
>  >>>>>>> > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > In human discourse about Man's impact on nature, that's 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > the way it's defined, and the whole issue is framed, as 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > you well know...
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > Edgar
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > On Oct 9, 2012, at 8:45 PM, Bill! wrote:
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > Edgar,
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > This was a VERY SERIOUS response.
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > Why is it that you think the things that humans do are 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 'unnatural' or against nature but the things that other 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > life does is 'natural' and okay? A friend of mine very 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > wisely (IMO)once suggested that all ethics should be 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > applied to humans and other life forms equally.
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > What is the quality that you believe separates humans 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > from the rest of nature so that human activities and 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > artifacts can be labeled as 'interference'?
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > ...Bill!
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > <edgarowen@> wrote:
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > >
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > Joe,
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > Come on, it's a serious issue...
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > Edgar
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > On Oct 9, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Joe wrote:
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Edgar,
> >> >
>  > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > And Humans are just the tip of the iceberg, too.
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > I don't know why plants and animals insist on 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > interfering with the way Nature works.
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > For example, on the early earth there was a nice 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > atmosphere without oxygen. But blasted Cyanobacteria 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > evolved which like to sip the methane and other 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > gases there were back then, and started polluting 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > the atmosphere with ...Oxygen! 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Then -- wouldn't you know -- other
>  organisms formed which turned CO2 into even MORE Oxygen, with a help from 
> light from the Sun. The nerve! They got away with it, though, because there 
> were no Police. The rug was pulled out from under Nature yet again!
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Later, some animals evolved, which USE the oxygen.
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Much later, some of these animals of the Mammal 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > variety called "Beavers" began to INSIST that they 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > interfere with the stately FLOW of river tributaries 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > and streams, by ...damming them up! Such nerve. You 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > may be sure that this caused inundations upstream, 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > and occasional floods downstream when the dams 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > burst. Havoc. Bye, bye, Nature!
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > The nerve of these organisms: Micro-organisms, 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Plants, and Animals. Always interfering with the way 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Nature works!
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > At least on the Moon there is no such interference, 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > there's just a continual, thin, rain of meteorites 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > pummeling the surface, and no atmosphere to make 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > things rust.
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Oops!, some exotic Mammals left some footprints on 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > the Moon, and some machinery, during the last fifty 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > years. WHY must there always be such interference? 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > The Moon had been Nature's nice, quiet, haven for 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > rock and dust for so long. Why must things always go 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > downhill?
> >> > > > >>>>>>> >
>  > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > --Joe
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > On 10/7/2012 9:26 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Why do humans always insist on interfering with 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > the way nature works?
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > >
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> >> > > > >>>>>>> > >
> >> > > > >>>>>>> >
> >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> >>
>  > > > >>>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>>> 
> >> > > > >>>> 
> >> > > > >>> 
> >> > > > >>> 
> >> > > > >>> 
> >> > > > >>> 
> >> > > > >> 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > > 
> >> > > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > 
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>




------------------------------------

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Re: [Zen] greed has no boundaries an climate change is real..( human made)

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