Re: [Zen] greed has no boundaries an climate change is real..( human made)

Sun, 14 Oct 2012 21:18:58 -0700 

Merle,

I would't like that either, but I've never seen anything like that.  I've seen 
a few people wearing masks in big cities, but not many.  I've seen videos on TV 
of people wearing masks in China and Japan.

...Bill!

--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote:
>
> 
> 
>  a shithouse coloured sky full of grey muck unable to see the sun or the 
> bright blue sky with the beautiful fluffy white clouds
>  and folk wearing those white masks on the faces...merle
> 
> 
>   
> Merle,
> 
> What's your definition of 'pollution'?  ...Bill!
> 
> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> >  go to beijing...the sky is grey with pollution..for christ sake...we 
> > are all polluting the atmosphere...B were do you live are you in touch with 
> > nature at all?...do you actually experience nature or just read about it 
> > ?...merle
> >   
> > Thank you KG.  My experience as an Exploration Geophysicist and 
> > studies in Historical and Glacial Geology also confirm what you say.  It 
> > is interesting that during the last Ice Age global sea levels were 600 feet 
> > lower than they are today.  From an Archeolgical and Anthropological 
> > standpoint this suggests that evidence of human occupation will be found 
> > along these drowned river valleys and the current Continental 
> > Shelf.  This is exciting to me and there is some work currently 
> > being done in parts of the world.    
> >  B 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> >  From: Kristopher Grey <kris@>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Sun, October 14, 2012 1:02:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] greed has no boundaries an climate change is real..( 
> > human made)
> > 
> >   
> > With only 60+ credit hours in Atmospheric 
> > Science/Meteorology/Oceanography/Space Weather/etc. - and having been a sea 
> > ice analyst/forecaster for both polar regions at NAVPOLAROCEANCEN, doing 
> > tropical weather at the Joint Typhoon Warning Center, and working as a 
> > weather observer and forecaster on land and sea in both hemispheres for 
> > many years - I tend to keep out of such discussions.
> > 
> > Beyond noting the the other planets in our system show similar warming - we 
> > are still thawing out from the last ice age - climate is not sensibly 
> > observable on the scale of a human lifetime - and hasn't shown any 
> > consistency over the span of human or even planetary existence - I will 
> > leave people to their largely politically informed opinions and 
> > superstitions.
> > 
> > The anthropomorphic crowd may get us to be a bit cleaner, which just being 
> > responsible (though this threatens to come at ridiculous expense and 
> > inefficiency due to government
> >  having wet dreams over the opportunity to license & tax the air). The big 
> > picture folks (what Merle likely has been programmed to call "deniers" - 
> > even thought they don't deny warming trends at all - or even that we have a 
> > hand in it - but only question the extent and reasonable response - if any 
> > - is needed) may remind us were not "all that".
> > 
> > "Keep a weather eye!" 
> > 
> > KG
> > 
> > PS -  Just 50 years ago there were people who stood 3x my height living 
> > all over the World!
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On 10/14/2012 11:59 AM, William Rintala wrote:
> > 
> >   
> > >Merle:
> > > 
> > >I was going to let you get away with this but I am curious to 
> > >examine the evidence that supports your position on global warming 
> > >and human's as its cause.  Please send it to me at at 
> > >brintala@ or post it here if you wish. Or are you one of those people 
> > >who say things like "please don't confuse the issue with facts, my mind 
> > >is already made up"?  I've watched Al Gore's "Inconvenient Truth" 
> > >and nothing he said convinced me.  Yes the atmosphere is warming 
> > >and yes the glaciers are retreating but this has been happening for at 
> > >least 12000 years. During the last Glacial period there was over a mile 
> > >of ice covering the place where I was born in 1950. It's all gone now. 
> > >Please respond with facts and not slander.  Saying that I am wicked or 
> > >that humans are the worst disaster that ever happened on earth offers 
> > >me nothing to make a decision on.  Just saying something doesn't make 
> > >it so.
> > > B 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________
> > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@>
> > >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> > >Sent: Sun, October 14, 2012 3:05:01 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [Zen] greed has no boundaries an climate change is real..( 
> > >human made)
> > >
> > >  
> > >B... climate change is real and EVERYTHING TO DO WITH US...  you are 
> > >wicked to say otherwise!..merle
> > > Merle:
> > > 
> > >    You are beginning to sound like Schopenhauer 
> > >who believed that the best thing that humanity could do is to stop 
> > >breeding and allow the species to die out.  Climate change is a matter 
> > >of geologic fact, it is happening and has nothing to do with us.  It's 
> > >been warming up for over 12,000 years.  Studies of ice cores from 
> > >glaciers in Greenland and Antartica (the Vostok ice cores) gives us a 
> > >record going back 800,000 years through several Glacial and 
> > >interglacial periods.  Analysis of gases trapped in the ice show a 
> > >marked increase in greenhouse gasses during interglacial periods.  
> > >This is consistent with the explosion of life during those times 
> > >(Carbon Dioxide, Methane). The eruption of Krakatoa in 1883 was much more 
> > >catastophic that anything humans have done the average global temperatures 
> > >fell by as much as 1.2 °C (2.2 °F). Weather patterns continued to be 
> > >chaotic for years, and temperatures did not
>  return to normal until 1888. The
> >  eruption injected an unusually large amount of sulfur dioxide (SO2) gas 
> > high into the stratosphere which was subsequently transported by high-level 
> > winds all over the planet. This led to a global increase in sulfurous acid 
> > (H2SO3) concentration in high-level cirrus clouds. The resulting increase 
> > in cloud reflectivity (or albedo) would reflect more incoming light from 
> > the sun than usual, and cool the entire planet until the suspended sulfur 
> > fell to the ground as acid precipitation.  The Eruption of Santorini 
> > 3600 years ago did even more damage.  The eruption of Mount Pinatubo on 
> > June 15, 1991 produced the second largest terrestrial eruption of the 20th 
> > century after the 1912 eruption of Novarupta in the Alaska Peninsula.  
> > The effects of the Pinatubo eruption were felt worldwide. It ejected 
> > roughly 10,000,000,000 tonnes (1.1Ãâ€"1010 short tons) or 10 km3 (2.4 cu 
> > mi) of magma, and 20,000,000 t (22,000,000 short tons)SO2 bringing vast
>  quantities of
> >  minerals and metals to the surface environment. It injected large amounts 
> > of aerosol into the stratosphere â€" more than any eruption since that 
> > of Krakatoa. Over the following months, the aerosols formed a global layer 
> > of sulfuric acid haze. Global temperatures dropped by about 0.5 °C 
> > (0.900 °F), and ozone depletion temporarily increased substantially. 
> > Mount St Helen's in 1980 was a relatively minor eruption and it sent up 
> > stuff that circled the globe and its eruption was a blast that was 400 
> > times more powerful than the atomic bomb that leveled Hiroshima.   
> > > 
> > >So what am I saying?  The earth is very large compared to anything 
> > >human.  The forces that actually control things are on a scale of 
> > >magnitude beyond anything that humanity can ever hope to control. We 
> > >are merely one very small piece of this emmense planet. It will shrug us 
> > >off like an elephant does a flea.  Near where you are in New Zealand 
> > >you have Mount Taranaki which began erupting about 130,000 years ago, 
> > >with large eruptions occurring on average every 500 years and smaller 
> > >eruptions about 90 years apart. An explosive medium sized ash eruption 
> > >occurred around 1755AD and minor volcanic events (creation of a lava dome 
> > >in the crater and its collapse) occurred in the 1800’s. The last 
> > >major eruption was around 1655 AD so we are due for another any time now 
> > >and overdue for a small to medium sized one.  The power of nature is 
> > >terrible to behold. Remember the Tyrant Lizard, Tyranosaurus Rex? The 
> > >Thunder Lizard,
>  Brontosaurus?  To quote Shelly and
> >  his poem to the great Egyptian King Ramesses II 
> > > 
> > >Ozymandias
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >        I met a traveller from an antique land
> > >                    
> > >   
> >                      
> >                     
> >                     
> >                     
> >                     
> >                     
> >                 Who said: Two vast and 
> > trunkless legs of stone
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >               
> >                      
> >                     
> >                     
> >                     
> >                     
> >         Stand in the desert. Near them, on the
> >  sand,
> > >                                                                                                                                                               &am
> > p;am p;am p;nb sp;Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    And 
> > >wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold
> >  command,
> > >                                                                                                                                                               
> >    Tell that its sculptor well those passions
> >  read
> > >                                                                                                                                                              
> > > Which yet
> >  survive, stamped on these lifeless
> >  things,
> > >                                                                                                                                                               T
> >  he hand that mocked them and the heart that fed:
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >    And on the pedestal these words appear:
> > >               
> >                      
> >                     
> >                     
> >                     
> >                     
> >                     
> >                     
> >         "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
> > >                                                                                                                                                               &a
> > mp;a mp;a mp;n bsp;  Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >    Nothing beside remains. Round the
> >  decay
> > >                                                                                                                                                              
> >      Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >                    
> > >    The lone and level sands stretch far away
> > > 
> > > 
> > >My belief is that humans are not the scourge of the earth. All we have 
> > >is this moment.  All that we can work with is right here, 
> > >right now.  Ringing our hands, calling names and condeming the 
> > >species does nothing but increase the distance between us. It's gilding 
> > >the lilly I suppose to further quote Gandhi in saying that you must be the 
> > >change you want to see in the world.
> > > B 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________
> > > From: Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@>
> > >To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> > >Sent: Sat, October 13, 2012 8:36:24 PM
> > >Subject: [Zen] greed has no boundaries
> > >
> > >  
> > >
> > >
> > > b... we are destroying nature! 
> > > get over it and accept.
> > >.humans are the worst disaster that ever happened to this earth..without 
> > >humans it would be paradise!..
> > >..where the hell do you live?..
> > >. do you commune with nature..?
> > >..here where i live upon this mountain top i see the devastation..the 
> > >climate change what it does to the garden" the garden of paradise".
> > >..yes and as you say humans are not significant in the scheme of things
> > >... but we are here now
> > >...so why destroy"?
> > >...we have the intelligence to make this a paradise on earth..why we do 
> > >not is because of: GREED!
> > >  
> > > greed has no boundaries
> > >
> > >
> > > however some us walk amongst us who can see the light!
> > > and care
> > > merle
> > >
> > >
> > >  
> > >I agree Bill!.  I have always been confused by people who say that 
> > >humans are destroying the environment or are acting in a way that harms 
> > >nature.  Unless we came from another planet we are a part of nature 
> > >and nature is and has always been in a stae of flux.  Human beings are 
> > >not the beginning or the end of the process of natural evolution.  If 
> > >we create a world that is toxic to us we will become unfit (to use 
> > >Darwin's meaning of the word).  As a part of nature it is in our own 
> > >best interest to create and nurture an environment that is conducive to 
> > >our survival as a species.  However, from a geologic perspective homo 
> > >sapien isn't very significant not even worthy of a footnote. Joe, when 
> > >is it postulated that our sun will become a Red Giant?  How long 
> > >before that will life on Earth become unsustainable, something like 
> > >5 thousand million years?
> > > 
> > >B 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Find what makes your heart sing…and do it! 
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >________________________________
> > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > >To: [email protected]
> > >Sent: Sat, October 13, 2012 4:21:07 AM
> > >Subject: Re: [Zen] calm down
> > >
> > >  
> > >Mike,
> > >
> > >I think you may have misread me, or I have misstated my position.
> > >
> > >My position is that EVERYTHING humans do is part of nature - is natural. 
> > >This is as opposed to those who say that humans 'interfere with' nature or 
> > >do 'unnatural' things.
> > >
> > >Oh! I just re-read your post and see what you're really pointing out is 
> > >what you think is the inconsistency in the statements about 'nature' and 
> > >then 'reality'.
> > >
> > >I do not consider 'nature' as 'reality'. 'Nature' is itself a mental 
> > >construct (illusion).
> > >
> > >I suspect that you want to, as does Edgar, to say that 'reality' includes 
> > >EVERYTHING including illusions, but I say no. Reality is Reality, or 
> > >Emptiness is Emptiness. Illusions are Illusions, or Form is Form.
> > >
> > >That's the way it looks from my side of cyberspace anyway. 
> > >
> > >...Bill!
> > >
> > >--- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Bill!,
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> >but your statement implies that human intervention and management is 
> > >> >NOT part of nature.
> > >> 
> > >> Yet then you say:
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> >These mental constructs are NOT reality.
> > >> 
> > >> In this big old universe of ours, what can stand apart/outside?
> > >> 
> > >> Mike
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >> ________________________________
> > >> From: Bill! <BillSmart@>
> > >> To: [email protected] 
> > >> Sent: Saturday, 13 October 2012, 2:30
> > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] calm down
> > >> 
> > >> 
> > >>   
> > >> Edgar,
> > >> 
> > >> You're doing it AGAIN!
> > >> 
> > >> You just stated: "...letting nature take care of itself with minimal 
> > >> human intervention or 'management'. Now at least you said 'minimal', but 
> > >> your statement implies that human intervention and management is NOT 
> > >> part of nature.
> > >> 
> > >> I'll give you an extreme, concrete example so there can be no wiggle 
> > >> room for either of us: Humans create nuclear power and then dispose of 
> > >> radioactive nuclear waste in a manner that changes the environment.
> > >> 
> > >> Is this human activity natural (part of nature) or not?
> > >> 
> > >> ...Bill! 
> > >> 
> > >> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > Bill,
> > >> > 
> > >> > No, you have my views exactly backward. I'm supporting the NON human 
> > >> > view of the environment, the view of letting nature take care of 
> > >> > itself with minimal human intervention or 'management'.
> > >> > 
> > >> > Edgar
> > >> > 
> > >> > 
> > >> > On Oct 12, 2012, at 3:00 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > >> > 
> > >> > > Edgar,
> > >> > > 
> > >> > > Action is indeed not inconsistent with zen.
> > >> > > 
> > >> > > What I and I believe KG are trying to point out is most everything 
> > >> > > you've talked about concerning the environment is based on a 
> > >> > > human-centric point of view. So when you throw around terms like 
> > >> > > 'interfering' and telling us to 'grow up', my only response back to 
> > >> > > you would be 'grow out' - expand your perspective...Bill! 
> > >> >
> >  > 
> > >> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > KG,
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > Your notion that nothing can be done to save the planet is 
> > >> > > > dangerous and mistaken. There are many who are working diligently 
> > >> > > > including myself. To what extent it succeeds remains to be seen.
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > Zen is not equivalent to hopelessness, inaction and nihilism as 
> > >> > > > you imply. That's a serious Western misconception. Action can be 
> > >> > > > done with Zen quite effectively... Action is NOT inconsistent with 
> > >> > > > Zen.
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > Edgar
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > 
> > >> > > > On Oct 10, 2012, at 10:59 PM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
> > >> >
> >  > > 
> > >> > > > > 
> > >> > > > > I never said a wit about OK/not OK. That's your judgement.
> > >> > > > > 
> > >> > > > > I simply find the very premise, as you lay it out, to be formed 
> > >> > > > > of the same destructive impulse to control.
> > >> > > > > 
> > >> > > > > I might say planetary scale destruction is inevitable, as that 
> > >> > > > > appears a logical albeit pointless conclusion, but I certainly 
> > >> > > > > don't claim to know so. Nor do I have reason to be concerned in 
> > >> > > > > the way you appear to be. Righteous indignation may feel good, 
> > >> > > > > but it's not a prerequisite for action. It only acts to spins 
> > >> > > > > the wheel.
> > >> > > > > 
> > >> > > > > KG
> > >> > > > > 
> > >> > > > > 
> > >> > > > > 
> > >> > > > > On 10/10/2012 7:35 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > >> > > > >> 
> > >> > > > >>
> >  Merle,
> > >> > > > >> 
> > >> > > > >> 
> > >> > > > >> Yes, KG seems obsessively attached to this discussion and why 
> > >> > > > >> destroying the planet is OK...
> > >> > > > >> :-)
> > >> > > > >> 
> > >> > > > >> Edgar
> > >> > > > >> 
> > >> > > > >> 
> > >> > > > >> 
> > >> > > > >> On Oct 10, 2012, at 5:56 PM, Merle Lester wrote:
> > >> > > > >> 
> > >> > > > >>> 
> > >> > > > >>> 
> > >> > > > >>> 
> > >> > > > >>> hey hey lads...settle down..calm please!...KG your loosing the 
> > >> > > > >>> pulse..merle
> > >> > > > >>> 
> > >> > > > >>> 
> > >> > > > >>> Yes, yes. That you hold a great many things to be of high 
> > >> > > > >>> importance is obvious to all but you. Thus you assume
> >  others are are talking about such things, and assume they are ignorant of 
> > same, when they are only talking about your ignorant attachments to these 
> > forms of divisive thinking.
> > >> > > > >>> 
> > >> > > > >>> KG
> > >> > > > >>> 
> > >> > > > >>> On 10/10/2012 11:27 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > >> > > > >>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>> KG,
> > >> > > > >>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>> I find it appalling you support the destruction of the planet 
> > >> > > > >>>> by humans and attack those who argue against it...
> > >> > > > >>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>> The lowest of the low...
> > >> > > > >>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>> Edgar
> > >> > > > >>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>> On Oct 10, 2012, at 10:52 AM, Kristopher Grey wrote:
> > >> > > > >>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>> Definitive dependency - in other words you frame this in a 
> > >> > > > >>>>> self-supporting way. The way a child argues when trying to 
> > >> > > > >>>>> sound all grown up. You might as well just say:
> > >> > > > >>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>> "You are a stupid baby! Stop being such a stupid baby!" *L*
> > >> > > > >>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>> No one is denying 'reality' but you Edgar. You are 
> > >> > > > >>>>> perverting others words to fit your preconceptions. You 
> > >> > > > >>>>> frame things as being out of control/needing to be 
> > >> > > > >>>>> controlled - which is the very divisive attitude that causes 
> > >> > > > >>>>> all the shit you find so wrong in the world.
> > >> > > >
> >  >>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>> Opposition distracts.
> > >> > > > >>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>> KG
> > >> > > > >>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>> On 10/10/2012 6:47 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > >> > > > >>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>> Bill,
> > >> > > > >>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>> By your perverted logic it is totally OK for man to be 
> > >> > > > >>>>>> destroying the planet because that's just a natural process.
> > >> > > > >>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>> Grow up and get real. Zen is not clever sophisms, it's 
> > >> > > > >>>>>> reality...
> > >> > > > >>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>> Edgar
> > >> > > >
> >  >>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>> On Oct 10, 2012, at 6:20 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > >> > > > >>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> Edgar,
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> What's REALLY important is that it's been framed wrong. 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> It's been framed as humans vs. nature, or as you put it 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> humans 'interfering' in nature. As long as humans think 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> they are not part of nature and taht all their action are 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> natural there will be this problem.
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> When a beaver builds a dam is that interfering with 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> nature? When a squirrel shits in the woods is that 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> interfering with
> >  nature? When a human splits an atom is that interfering with nature? When 
> > a human manipulates DNA is that interfering with nature?
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> What is the quality that humans have that other animals 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> don't have that renders them capable of interference - 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> IYO? (I just made that up, IYO = 'in your opinion')
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> ...Bill!
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> >
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > Come on Bill.
> > >> > > >
> >  >>>>>>> > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > In human discourse about Man's impact on nature, that's 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > the way it's defined, and the whole issue is framed, as 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > you well know...
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > Edgar
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > On Oct 9, 2012, at 8:45 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > Edgar,
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > This was a VERY SERIOUS response.
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > Why is it that you think the things that humans do are 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 'unnatural' or against nature but the things that 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > other life does is 'natural' and okay? A friend of 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > mine very wisely (IMO)once suggested that all ethics 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > should be applied to humans and other life forms 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > equally.
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > What is the quality that you believe separates humans 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > from the rest of nature so that human activities and 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > artifacts can be labeled as 'interference'?
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > ...Bill!
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > >
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > Joe,
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > Come on, it's a serious issue...
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > Edgar
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > On Oct 9, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Joe wrote:
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Edgar,
> > >> >
> >  > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > And Humans are just the tip of the iceberg, too.
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > I don't know why plants and animals insist on 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > interfering with the way Nature works.
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > For example, on the early earth there was a nice 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > atmosphere without oxygen. But blasted 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Cyanobacteria evolved which like to sip the 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > methane and other gases there were back then, and 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > started polluting the atmosphere with ...Oxygen! 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Then -- wouldn't you know -- other
> >  organisms formed which turned CO2 into even MORE Oxygen, with a help from 
> > light from the Sun. The nerve! They got away with it, though, because there 
> > were no Police. The rug was pulled out from under Nature yet again!
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Later, some animals evolved, which USE the oxygen.
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Much later, some of these animals of the Mammal 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > variety called "Beavers" began to INSIST that they 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > interfere with the stately FLOW of river 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > tributaries and streams, by ...damming them up! 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Such nerve. You may be sure that this caused 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > inundations upstream, and occasional floods 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > downstream when the dams burst. Havoc. Bye, bye, 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Nature!
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > The nerve of these organisms: Micro-organisms, 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Plants, and Animals. Always interfering with the 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > way Nature works!
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > At least on the Moon there is no such 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > interference, there's just a continual, thin, rain 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > of meteorites pummeling the surface, and no 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > atmosphere to make things rust.
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > Oops!, some exotic Mammals left some footprints on 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > the Moon, and some machinery, during the last 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > fifty years. WHY must there always be such 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > interference? The Moon had been Nature's nice, 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > quiet, haven for rock and dust for so long. Why 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > must things always go downhill?
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> >
> >  > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > --Joe
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > On 10/7/2012 9:26 PM, Edgar Owen wrote:
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > Why do humans always insist on interfering 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > > > with the way nature works?
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > > >
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > >
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > > 
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> > >
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> >
> > >> > > > >>>>>>> 
> > >>
> >  > > > >>>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>>> 
> > >> > > > >>>> 
> > >> > > > >>> 
> > >> > > > >>> 
> > >> > > > >>> 
> > >> > > > >>> 
> > >> > > > >> 
> > >> > > > > 
> > >> > > > > 
> > >> > > > >
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > 
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

------------------------------------

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