Mike, Merle agrees with my 'theories' because she, though not you apparently, understands they are not theories but descriptions of engaging with real life...
Edgar On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:19 PM, mike brown wrote: > Merle, > > Not really. I do get the impression that you somehow look down on formal > sitting as a practice to realise Zen, but that's kind of ok because Zen *can* > be realised without formal sitting. However, without a teacher you might > mistake a particular experience for something that it is not (Zen literature > is full of students who think they've 'got it' only to be shot down in flames > by their teacher and then be grateful to their teacher later on when they've > tasted the real thing). The other side of the coin (which was my point in > that post and was directed to Edgar) is that Zen is not something that can be > realised with your head stuck in a book and cannot be improved upon by > "updates" in scientific or theoretical discoveries. In fact, I'm surprised > you've thrown your weight behind Edgar's theories because, well, they're > theories. > > Mike > > > > ________________________________ > From: Merle Lester <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 20:43 > Subject: Re: [Zen] understanding zen > > > > > > mike....i thought it was an addition to what i was saying...merle > > > Merle, > > You know this (the post below) was directed at Edgar, don't you? > > Mike > > > ________________________________ > From: mike brown <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2012, 21:08 > Subject: Re: [Zen] understanding zen > > > > Merle, > >> .practising zen to me is not > sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats, eyes shut tight, sniffing > incense and listening to gongs." > > You're certainly correct about that, but neither is it about sitting in a > university lecture theatre/library studying advanced psychology or > neuroscience. > > Mike > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Merle Lester <[email protected]> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2012, 20:54 > Subject: [Zen] understanding zen > > > > edgar. > > .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it except i > cannot explain it like you have.. > > .zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as i see it we > zen through the day.. > > .practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats, eyes > shut tight, sniffing incense and listening to gongs." > > .it's being out there in the real world every minute alert breathing the > breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak.. > > . as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap their hands and > shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? let me remind them.. > > .it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding > > it's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking and talking as if in > a shadowland( plato's cave)..... > > next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and you'll very > soon understand > > merle > > > Edgar, > > It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say the same about > your theories. > > > "It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when the > Zen texts were written." > > > Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience the Patriarchs > weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now are? Is this discovery > definitive or could there be further "updates" which would render the Zen you > practice now obsolete? Are you in fact practicing Zen or something different > entirely? > > > Mike > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Edgar Owen <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34 > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous? > > > > Joe, > > I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving' actually > means... > > Mind is a computational system that continually computes sensations, actions > etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is no escaping that so long as you > are alive. In fact measurements show that mind is almost as active during > sleep as when awake. > > So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it precisely > because your mind is moving. > > What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that mind moves in > sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This 'Zen is mind not moving' > platitude was written centuries ago when the computational dynamics of mind > were not understood. It refers to a state when you don't consciously think > you are deciding to take particular actions but actions seem to flow > spontaneously from an unconscious inner source. However it is now known that > is always happening anyway. The conscious mind actually very rarely makes any > decisions at all even though it thinks it does. That's the illusion. The > source of almost all decisions and actions is always the unconscious inner > computational system. > > It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when the Zen > texts were written. > > So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is realization > that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is actually happening, not getting > rid of all thoughts which is of course impossible if you want to function in > reality and survive through the day... > > True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead! > > > If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when I put it to > him... > > Edgar > > > > > > > On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote: > > >> Edgar, >> >> Ha, ha. >> >> Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment. >> >> Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can follow a logical >> exposition: >> >> The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on rice paper do >> so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they do it with NO mind (and >> hence, no mind-motion). >> >> I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come OUT of >> meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move your BODY, VERY >> SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening circles from the waist, first in >> direction, then in the other". >> >> That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before certain >> developments on retreat... >> >> ...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the mind, and the >> body could nonetheless move. >> >> But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at all was a >> continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was certainly possible, and >> richer than ever before. "Decisions" and actions were the best I have ever >> done. >> >> And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type. >> >> I had to type. >> >> I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced radio-telescope >> from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin Hall, 120th Street and >> Broadway. I discovered in these months giant filaments of cold molecular >> gas, constrained and confined by magnetic fields, in the Milky Way pouring >> from high above the galactic plane in the Orion-Arm, and down onto the >> galactic disk, where the supersonic impact from the flow stimulated the >> formation of stars in objects like Monoceros R2, and the Rosette Nebula. >> The Great Nebula M42 in Orion is part of this complex. >> >> Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more awakenings showed >> the same nature and character of our empty, still, awakened state, in the >> midst of no-matter-what activity. No thoughts: nothing moving. Life is a >> continuous intuition: the only mind is the mind we all share, which is no >> mind. >> >> I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the feeling or >> sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING moving at all, is an illusion >> that pertains to the un-awakened state, and to that state only. These >> things are illusions and delusions, but the awakened state does not >> deprecate them: they are simply not present in the awakened state, however; >> not present at all. >> >> Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of something moving, >> and of something that takes TIME to pass before the awareness. This appears >> to indicate that free action of the mind is dammed-up, or necked-down, in >> the un-awakened state, into a bottle-neck situation, which is just what we >> might also expect. >> >> NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time. >> >> Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW. >> >> See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places? >> >> Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor formulated. >> >> Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not something >> that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply respond naturally. >> >> And so it is. >> >> --Joe >> >>> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: >>> >>> Joe, >>> >>> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The mind has to >>> move to write... >>> >>> THAT's the experience... >> >> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
