Bill, That's what I just said. Glad you agree...
Edgar On Nov 14, 2012, at 9:22 PM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > > Anything you and Merle understand is not real life. You don't understand > real life, you experience it. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Mike, > > > > Merle agrees with my 'theories' because she, though not you apparently, > > understands they are not theories but descriptions of engaging with real > > life... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:19 PM, mike brown wrote: > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > Not really. I do get the impression that you somehow look down on formal > > > sitting as a practice to realise Zen, but that's kind of ok because Zen > > > *can* be realised without formal sitting. However, without a teacher you > > > might mistake a particular experience for something that it is not (Zen > > > literature is full of students who think they've 'got it' only to be shot > > > down in flames by their teacher and then be grateful to their teacher > > > later on when they've tasted the real thing). The other side of the coin > > > (which was my point in that post and was directed to Edgar) is that Zen > > > is not something that can be realised with your head stuck in a book and > > > cannot be improved upon by "updates" in scientific or theoretical > > > discoveries. In fact, I'm surprised you've thrown your weight behind > > > Edgar's theories because, well, they're theories. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... > > > To: "[email protected]" [email protected] > > > Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 20:43 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] understanding zen > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > mike....i thought it was an addition to what i was saying...merle > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > You know this (the post below) was directed at Edgar, don't you? > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: mike brown uerusuboyo@... > > > To: "[email protected]" [email protected] > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2012, 21:08 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] understanding zen > > > > > > > > > > > > Merle, > > > > > >> .practising zen to me is not > > > sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats, eyes shut tight, sniffing > > > incense and listening to gongs." > > > > > > You're certainly correct about that, but neither is it about sitting in a > > > university lecture theatre/library studying advanced psychology or > > > neuroscience. > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... > > > To: "[email protected]" [email protected] > > > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2012, 20:54 > > > Subject: [Zen] understanding zen > > > > > > > > > > > > edgar. > > > > > > .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it except i > > > cannot explain it like you have.. > > > > > > .zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as i see it > > > we zen through the day.. > > > > > > .practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats, > > > eyes shut tight, sniffing incense and listening to gongs." > > > > > > .it's being out there in the real world every minute alert breathing the > > > breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak.. > > > > > > . as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap their hands > > > and shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? let me remind them.. > > > > > > .it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding > > > > > > it's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking and talking as if > > > in a shadowland( plato's cave)..... > > > > > > next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and you'll very > > > soon understand > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say the same > > > about your theories. > > > > > > > > > "It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when > > > the Zen texts were written." > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience the > > > Patriarchs weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now are? Is this > > > discovery definitive or could there be further "updates" which would > > > render the Zen you practice now obsolete? Are you in fact practicing Zen > > > or something different entirely? > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous? > > > > > > > > > > > > Joe, > > > > > > I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving' actually > > > means... > > > > > > Mind is a computational system that continually computes sensations, > > > actions etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is no escaping that so > > > long as you are alive. In fact measurements show that mind is almost as > > > active during sleep as when awake. > > > > > > So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it precisely > > > because your mind is moving. > > > > > > What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that mind moves > > > in sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This 'Zen is mind not > > > moving' platitude was written centuries ago when the computational > > > dynamics of mind were not understood. It refers to a state when you don't > > > consciously think you are deciding to take particular actions but actions > > > seem to flow spontaneously from an unconscious inner source. However it > > > is now known that is always happening anyway. The conscious mind actually > > > very rarely makes any decisions at all even though it thinks it does. > > > That's the illusion. The source of almost all decisions and actions is > > > always the unconscious inner computational system. > > > > > > It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown when the > > > Zen texts were written. > > > > > > So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is > > > realization that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is actually > > > happening, not getting rid of all thoughts which is of course impossible > > > if you want to function in reality and survive through the day... > > > > > > True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead! > > > > > > > > > If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when I put it > > > to him... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote: > > > > > > > > >> Edgar, > > >> > > >> Ha, ha. > > >> > > >> Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment. > > >> > > >> Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can follow a > > >> logical exposition: > > >> > > >> The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on rice > > >> paper do so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they do it with NO > > >> mind (and hence, no mind-motion). > > >> > > >> I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come OUT of > > >> meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move your BODY, VERY > > >> SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening circles from the waist, > > >> first in direction, then in the other". > > >> > > >> That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before certain > > >> developments on retreat... > > >> > > >> ...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the mind, and the > > >> body could nonetheless move. > > >> > > >> But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at all was a > > >> continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was certainly possible, > > >> and richer than ever before. "Decisions" and actions were the best I > > >> have ever done. > > >> > > >> And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type. > > >> > > >> I had to type. > > >> > > >> I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced > > >> radio-telescope from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin Hall, > > >> 120th Street and Broadway. I discovered in these months giant filaments > > >> of cold molecular gas, constrained and confined by magnetic fields, in > > >> the Milky Way pouring from high above the galactic plane in the > > >> Orion-Arm, and down onto the galactic disk, where the supersonic impact > > >> from the flow stimulated the formation of stars in objects like > > >> Monoceros R2, and the Rosette Nebula. The Great Nebula M42 in Orion is > > >> part of this complex. > > >> > > >> Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more awakenings > > >> showed the same nature and character of our empty, still, awakened > > >> state, in the midst of no-matter-what activity. No thoughts: nothing > > >> moving. Life is a continuous intuition: the only mind is the mind we all > > >> share, which is no mind. > > >> > > >> I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the feeling or > > >> sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING moving at all, is an > > >> illusion that pertains to the un-awakened state, and to that state only. > > >> These things are illusions and delusions, but the awakened state does > > >> not deprecate them: they are simply not present in the awakened state, > > >> however; not present at all. > > >> > > >> Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of something > > >> moving, and of something that takes TIME to pass before the awareness. > > >> This appears to indicate that free action of the mind is dammed-up, or > > >> necked-down, in the un-awakened state, into a bottle-neck situation, > > >> which is just what we might also expect. > > >> > > >> NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time. > > >> > > >> Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW. > > >> > > >> See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places? > > >> > > >> Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor formulated. > > >> > > >> Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not > > >> something that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply respond > > >> naturally. > > >> > > >> And so it is. > > >> > > >> --Joe > > >> > > >>> Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Joe, > > >>> > > >>> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The mind has > > >>> to move to write... > > >>> > > >>> THAT's the experience... > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
