Edgar,
Anything you and Merle understand is not real life. You don't
understand real life, you experience it.
...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>
> Merle agrees with my 'theories' because she, though not you
apparently, understands they are not theories but descriptions of
engaging with real life...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:19 PM, mike brown wrote:
>
> > Merle,
> >
> > Not really. I do get the impression that you somehow look down on
formal sitting as a practice to realise Zen, but that's kind of ok
because Zen *can* be realised without formal sitting. However, without a
teacher you might mistake a particular experience for something that it
is not (Zen literature is full of students who think they've 'got it'
only to be shot down in flames by their teacher and then be grateful to
their teacher later on when they've tasted the real thing). The other
side of the coin (which was my point in that post and was directed to
Edgar) is that Zen is not something that can be realised with your head
stuck in a book and cannot be improved upon by "updates" in scientific
or theoretical discoveries. In fact, I'm surprised you've thrown your
weight behind Edgar's theories because, well, they're theories.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...
> > To: "[email protected]" [email protected]
> > Sent: Wednesday, 14 November 2012, 20:43
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] understanding zen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > mike....i thought it was an addition to what i was saying...merle
> >
> >
> > Merle,
> >
> > You know this (the post below) was directed at Edgar, don't you?
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: mike brown uerusuboyo@...
> > To: "[email protected]" [email protected]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2012, 21:08
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] understanding zen
> >
> >
> >
> > Merle,
> >
> >> .practising zen to me is not
> > sitting cross legged on "handwoven mats, eyes shut tight, sniffing
> > incense and listening to gongs."
> >
> > You're certainly correct about that, but neither is it about sitting
in a university lecture theatre/library studying advanced psychology or
neuroscience.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Merle Lester merlewiitpom@...
> > To: "[email protected]" [email protected]
> > Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2012, 20:54
> > Subject: [Zen] understanding zen
> >
> >
> >
> > edgar.
> >
> > .i can understand what you are saying...and that is how i see it
except i cannot explain it like you have..
> >
> > .zen to me is being in the moment alert and forever present...as i
see it we zen through the day..
> >
> > .practising zen to me is not sitting cross legged on "handwoven
mats, eyes shut tight, sniffing incense and listening to gongs."
> >
> > .it's being out there in the real world every minute alert breathing
the breath..."zenning the zen"..so to speak..
> >
> > . as as for those folk on those forum who are going to clap their
hands and shout "horror horror where the hell is she at"? let me remind
them..
> >
> > .it's not me who's struggling with zen understanding
> >
> > it's those hundreds of folk who we see everyday walking and talking
as if in a shadowland( plato's cave).....
> >
> > next time you go to the shopping mall pay close attention and you'll
very soon understand
> >
> > merle
> >
> >
> > Edgar,
> >
> > It's good to see you back and well. Unfortunately I can't say the
same about your theories.
> >
> >
> > "It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown
when the Zen texts were written."
> >
> >
> > Are you saying that prior to this 'breakthru' in neuroscience the
Patriarchs weren't practicing 'real' Zen, but that you now are? Is this
discovery definitive or could there be further "updates" which would
render the Zen you practice now obsolete? Are you in fact practicing Zen
or something different entirely?
> >
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@...
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Monday, 29 October 2012, 22:34
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Is buddha nature coninuous?
> >
> >
> >
> > Joe,
> >
> > I think you have a mistaken interpretation of what 'mind moving'
actually means...
> >
> > Mind is a computational system that continually computes sensations,
actions etc. Thus mind continually moves. There is no escaping that so
long as you are alive. In fact measurements show that mind is almost as
active during sleep as when awake.
> >
> > So mind always moves in that sense. Everything you do you do it
precisely because your mind is moving.
> >
> > What Zen means by mind not moving is different. It means that mind
moves in sync with reality, not in opposition to it. This 'Zen is mind
not moving' platitude was written centuries ago when the computational
dynamics of mind were not understood. It refers to a state when you
don't consciously think you are deciding to take particular actions but
actions seem to flow spontaneously from an unconscious inner source.
However it is now known that is always happening anyway. The conscious
mind actually very rarely makes any decisions at all even though it
thinks it does. That's the illusion. The source of almost all decisions
and actions is always the unconscious inner computational system.
> >
> > It's an updated understanding of how mind works that was unknown
when the Zen texts were written.
> >
> > So Zen is 24/7, whether your mind is moving or not. If there is
realization that is. Zen is a matter of realizing what is actually
happening, not getting rid of all thoughts which is of course impossible
if you want to function in reality and survive through the day...
> >
> > True mindlessness = lobotomy or more accurately being dead!
> >
> >
> > If you want a reference even Suzuki Roshi agreed with this when I
put it to him...
> >
> > Edgar
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Oct 29, 2012, at 4:30 PM, Joe wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Edgar,
> >>
> >> Ha, ha.
> >>
> >> Yeah, I don't get what motivates your comment.
> >>
> >> Let's see if, no matter what mind you are in now, you can follow a
logical exposition:
> >>
> >> The Zen adept Sumie ink artists who paint big black circles on rice
paper do so with a mind that does not move: I mean, they do it with NO
mind (and hence, no mind-motion).
> >>
> >> I remember our Shif-fu, on retreats, teaching us how to come OUT of
meditation. He'd say, "MOVE YOUR MIND, first, then move your BODY, VERY
SLOWLY, and sway your body in ever-widening circles from the waist,
first in direction, then in the other".
> >>
> >> That always seemed like un-necessary advice to me, before certain
developments on retreat...
> >>
> >> ...After which, I found that it was impossible to move the mind,
and the body could nonetheless move.
> >>
> >> But the months of life afterwards with the mind not moving at all
was a continuing marvel and surprise. And yet, life was certainly
possible, and richer than ever before. "Decisions" and actions were the
best I have ever done.
> >>
> >> And, Edgar, I found I could not only write, but I could type.
> >>
> >> I had to type.
> >>
> >> I needed to type because my job was to control an advanced
radio-telescope from a Tektronix terminal at the top of Pupin Hall,
120th Street and Broadway. I discovered in these months giant filaments
of cold molecular gas, constrained and confined by magnetic fields, in
the Milky Way pouring from high above the galactic plane in the
Orion-Arm, and down onto the galactic disk, where the supersonic impact
from the flow stimulated the formation of stars in objects like
Monoceros R2, and the Rosette Nebula. The Great Nebula M42 in Orion is
part of this complex.
> >>
> >> Decades more of practice and many more retreats and more awakenings
showed the same nature and character of our empty, still, awakened
state, in the midst of no-matter-what activity. No thoughts: nothing
moving. Life is a continuous intuition: the only mind is the mind we
all share, which is no mind.
> >>
> >> I can say that the currents in the mind, or head, and the feeling
or sensation that there are thoughts, or ANYTHING moving at all, is an
illusion that pertains to the un-awakened state, and to that state only.
These things are illusions and delusions, but the awakened state does
not deprecate them: they are simply not present in the awakened state,
however; not present at all.
> >>
> >> Surely, in the un-awakened state, there is the sense of something
moving, and of something that takes TIME to pass before the awareness.
This appears to indicate that free action of the mind is dammed-up, or
necked-down, in the un-awakened state, into a bottle-neck situation,
which is just what we might also expect.
> >>
> >> NOT in the awakened state. Nothing takes time.
> >>
> >> Prajna is likened to LIGHTNING, for this reason, BTW.
> >>
> >> See the Dorje lightning-bolt images at Tibetan places?
> >>
> >> Prajna is entirely spontaneous and can not be mulled-over nor
formulated.
> >>
> >> Compassion arises simultaneously with Prajna. Compassion is not
something that you FEEL, in the awakened state, you simply respond
naturally.
> >>
> >> And so it is.
> >>
> >> --Joe
> >>
> >>> Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Joe,
> >>>
> >>> Well obviously your mind was moving when you wrote this... The
mind has to move to write...
> >>>
> >>> THAT's the experience...
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
